So, is Kyrin banned forever, or what?

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5 years 9 months ago #322453 by
I believe I'm caught up now, and I'm actually glad this conversation is continuing because we need to keep our attention on such things as long as is necessary to learn what we need to from them. It is not my intention to be the voice of Council here, but as Kyrin's TM, a Security Officer, and a Councillor myself, I do realize that I have become the de facto voice of the administration regarding this issue. In that role, I'll continue to attempt to clarify things and also take everyone's thoughts and opinions into consideration. Be aware, though, that I still speak for myself. So, here's a few things I need to address.

1. There has not been an official decision made regarding the length of this ban or whether it could/should/will be permanent. There has been no conversation about it in Council for over a week, but I'll see that it gets revisited.

2. There were multiple discussions regarding how to deal with Kyrin specifically as well as how to react to the others involved in the ongoing conflict in the forums and shoutbox before the ban was implemented. There are only three Councillors who have the administrative access to actually push the ban button, and one of them pushed that button while conversations were still taking place. I am not willing to say that this action was wrong because it has had the desired effect of peace in the forums and shoutbox. What I am ready to say is that there was clearly a breakdown in or lack of clear procedure about how to deal with issues like this, and we have taken notice in Council. We continue to discuss how to create a clear protocol that can be easily followed in the future. I have a big hand in creating that protocol currently, and it is part of the Sergeant At Arms role that has been recently created. More details to come.

3. As James pointed out above, I believe this ban was a choice made out of convenience. Banning Kyrin was the fastest and easiest way to deal with a number of issues all happening at once involving many different people here. It was a decisive action that generated results, but now we need to determine if it was the right action and whether it should be repeated. There are still varying opinions about Kyrin and some other members of the Temple. Councillors are on all sides of the issue and continue to make cases for all possible outcomes. I don't know that we will ever come to an agreement, but I understand that there is a need for action and we'll have to make decisions even if they piss some people off.

4. Kyrin is not the only person that violated our terms and contributed to these problems. Everyone has their own opinions and remembers things they way that is most convenient, but I have spent way too much time investigating all sides of this to hear people try to place blame or point fingers. Everyone here played their part in it. We are not trying to judge who is right or wrong or who started what, but rather identify the people who were nearly always involved. Here's the facts regarding conversations in Council. Kyrin's name was mentioned often as an instigator. Zenchi's name was also mentioned often as an instigator and has a past of being banned from TOTJO as well. Arisaig and Avalon were mentioned as people who would sometimes pile on or instigate conflict as well. Whether intentional or not, participants acted in ways that contributed to the conflict, and I do believe that there were times that it was deliberate. Specifically, there is an issue of respecting the way Kyrin asks to be referred to within these walls and this respect has not been given. There are also instances of people speaking for others and misrepresenting what was actually said. There is evidence of many people acting inappropriately at one time or another and every one of them was considered for disciplinary action, and to be quite frank, we're still watching.

5. I personally played a role in the outcome, and I am not happy with the things that happened and where we ended up. I don't agree with the way it was handled by Council or by myself as a Security Officer. I don't like that Kyrin has been banned without any clear way back or any timeline. I don't like that people continue to justify their actions out of pride rather than accept that we all screwed up at one time or another. I don't like most things about this situation, but it isn't about me. This is about who we are as a Temple and how we treat each other. It is about whether or not we will respect each other despite our differences and whether or not we can respect the volunteers who have the difficult duties of administration. This is bigger than any one of us, and the personal gripes need to be set aside. We either accept that we are Apprentices, Knights, Officers, and Councillors that have expectations for certain behavior, or we can be selfish and continue to fight over who is "right".

6. Consistency is a problem. We are not applying the rules in an evenhanded and consistent manner. It is my sincere desire to change this trend and create procedures to follow. MadHatter is also working very hard to establish these protocols with me. Not everyone will like them, but we have to start somewhere. It will require a lot of the "old timers" here to let go of the past and be willing to move forward in a new way. That is going to be a challenge, but it is going to happen.

In conclusion, it is time to accept what has happened, resolve the questions about Kyrin's return and the stipulations attached, and let the rest go. A whole bunch of people, myself included, contributed to the clusterf*%k that happened here, but blaming anyone now won't change it. We should each accept responsibility for our part in it and agree to do whatever we can to prevent making the same mistakes again in the future.
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5 years 9 months ago #322454 by rugadd
I don't think I have witnessed a banning over simply disagreeing....I HAVE witnessed banning when there is a disagreement followed by rancor. I do believe there is a "social capital" in effect, meaning you get to be an ass once in awhile as long as your generally nice most of the time. I wouldn't know an effective way of gauging that, let alone making it fair. Maybe we should remember that we have instincts as well as thought?

rugadd
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5 years 9 months ago #322456 by Brick
Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response Senan, it is much appreciated

Apprentice to Maitre Chevalier Jedi Alexandre Orion

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5 years 9 months ago #322460 by Zenchi
Granted I whole heartedly admit to calling them out multiple times for their overtly aggressive behavior, but if I violated "the rules" as has been stated I would like to see such evidence pointed to me in all due respect, as I never was provided with a single warning, until after Kyrin's banning. Last I'd checked, warnings were commonplace before disciplinary actions such as banning took place. This event took place before the new terms of agreement were posted at the top of the header.

So, if I was indeed in violation of "the rules" in this instance I'd like it pointed to me here or privately please. It's not my wish to drag this any further, just looking for clarification, as events in the past have been exaggerated and even fabricated in the past by those in charge, thank you...

My Word is my Honor, and my Honor is my Life ~ Sturm Brightblade
Passion, yet Serenity
Knighted Apprentice Arisaig
TM- RyuJin
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5 years 9 months ago #322464 by
I'll shoot you a quick PM, but for the sake of being public about it, I don't believe you violated specific rules or terms of use. The exchanges I saw were more along the lines of helping to create an atmosphere of animosity and conflict when things could have been ignored. There is a lot more to it than that, of course, and I appreciate you asking for clarification.
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5 years 9 months ago - 5 years 9 months ago #322465 by Avalon
For what participation I've had here as of late, I had my reasons for doing and saying what I did. But for the most part, I've personally found myself participating in very little, also for reasons. If you want those either of those reasons, you know where and how to find me, Senan.

Anyone who knows me should know that I rarely act purely for the sake of causing conflict, even if how I did respond wasn't always the best thought out. Regardless, if you consider me as part of the problem enough to list me by name, then do with me what you will....

Not all those who wander are lost
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Last edit: 5 years 9 months ago by Avalon.
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5 years 9 months ago #322469 by
I think this entire thread proves that banning is ridiculous when not provided with the right evidence and due caution. Kyrin was banned , maybe rightly so, maybe not. The thing is that there is a learning environment where all are responsible for the atmosphere and the way they communicate with each other. Already people are finger pointing and feeling sorry for themselves for being named ( aah the victim card is such a sweet card right? ) . Thing is , since i have been here i have seen people ganging up on others and making fun of them in chat and in the forums and it were often the same people , i have even sought a fight with some Teaching Masters over it because i felt that as a Teaching Master one is kind of responsible for the behaviour of their students. And i feel that the apprentices stupid fuck behaviour reflects bad on the teaching Masters and the Temple as a whole , i suggest you consider my Dog House idea , i suggest taking this discussion out of the public eye and i suggest you Teaching Masters keep your apprentices line. But then again who am i right? I am just yelling from the side lines right? Like the voice of one calling in the desert ….
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5 years 9 months ago #322473 by Carlos.Martinez3
This thread was simply asking for some insight as to the question a memer had. It’s hard to give specifics in public when asked because not all party’s are avalible or do not want to be avalible. There never a need for blame or swear. The question was answered and there was more questions and more discussion. This is a forum. That’s it’s purpose. If there’s any question - feel free to contact individuals directly. Let’s keep all that in mind. ? Some individuals have long since moved on. Let’s continue to treat one another like - they are inherently worth - equally as a human and heart. Hope all questions we’re properly answered and hope this discussion continues to build not tear down. Force be with you all! ( y’all!) maybthe Force we share seek and serve be with us all as we all seek it !

Pastor of Temple of the Jedi Order
pastor@templeofthejediorder.org
Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
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5 years 9 months ago #322474 by Rosalyn J
Possible to take a course in Justice?

https://www.edx.org/course/justice-harvardx-er22-1x-2

Justice: What's the Right Thing to Do? https://www.amazon.com/dp/0374532508/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_7McgBb7ZGJ5A4

I think it'd be good to get a hold of what we are talking about. We can set a new thread up :)

Pax Per Ministerium
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5 years 9 months ago #322476 by
Avalon,
I'm sorry if it seems like I have singled you out. I've reached out to Zenchi and Arisaig as well to explain that it was not my intention to place blame, but merely to share the fact that your name was mentioned in discussions revolving around this issue with Kyrin. I don't recall a time that you specifically broke any rules either.

This is another example of the damage we can do when we lump each other into groups or assign guilt by association. I'm sorry if it seems like you were being assigned equal responsibility for all that happened because that is not the case. I have been lumped in with others in the past as well and I know how damaging it can be to one's reputation. My own Teaching Master had a reputation of being a bit cranky and combative at times, and I often went along for the ride when he would be involved in some drama or another. It took a while for me to recover from the way he left this place, and there are still some here who associate me with those past events rather than who I am now. I also get placed in the generic group of "Councillor" or "Council" even when I often don't agree with what other Councillors are saying or doing. Rather than be judged as an individual, we get judged as some kind of nebulous "thing" that acts as one instead of a group of individuals.

Again, I'm sorry if I seemed to call you out and I can see how my words were taken that way. I'd like for all of us to be able to put the miscommunications and blame games behind us and agree that we all want the same things for this place. We want productive and healthy communication that promotes learning and growth. Sometimes that will mean we are challenged as individuals about our opinions and ideas, but it shouldn't be a challenge to our value as humans.
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