So, is Kyrin banned forever, or what?

Thank you, and agreed! I'm realizing I can't simply tell my Apprentices to stand down and refrain from engaging when I myself am no angel, and have probably lipped off more than anyone else in the last six years, regardless of the reason involved.

I either attempt to set the example, or I am a flaming hypocrite...

I didn't feel any such thing, and despite what some might suggest, I wasn't commenting to pull a "poor me." See the thing is, is I know what part I had or didn't have in all the events that led up to the banning that spurred this conversation. And as I fully admitted above, I had times where I didn't part-take in a manner that was as well thought out as it should have been. I stopped my involvement because, despite my reasoning for said involvement, I knew I wasn't going about it the right way. All of us who were involved, or witness to, those events know our level of responsibility. Whether or not we accept responsibility is going to differ for each person involved.

At most, my comment was to take responsibility for my part in said events. But you did somewhat touch on the other reason I commented at all: the whole pointing fingers at groups of people. Unless there's an intent to punish all named the same way (and at this late point in the game, that intent shouldn't be a thing), then there's little reason to have named "all" parties involved. It only serves to continue the finger pointing and group blaming that shouldn't ever happen at all. At least from where I stand.

Just my two cents.

Beyond that, what I said in my previous post stands, on all accounts.

So, is Kyrin banned forever, or what?

Answer: what

Joomla hard codes the term ban and it's often not a literal description of the situation.

Without violating anyone's privacy, I can say that accounts are sometimes suspended for an indeterminate period. Someone who is suspended can ask to be reinstated. That's a first step. Sometimes people discover they don't care to return or some time may pass until they feel they wish to return.

The Order is not all things for everyone. If it tried it would not be anything for anyone.

Just as an opinion to share, there are far more important things out there, that could benefit greatly from your attention, then the contents of this thread...

Well, I've been away from here for a long time, but since this seems to be the most active thread in the forums, I took the time to read.

I don't have any sides on this, since I was not an active member but it seems to me that most of the outrage seems to stem from the way the ban was handled. If I can give my two cents, I'm a football official. In the association I'm part of, sometimes officials do things that demand some kind of disciplinary action, according to our statute. The way things are solved there is simple. The person responsible for the disciplinary action, in this case Senan, reaches out to the part or parts involved and say they are under disciplinary action risk for what they did. After that, the part or parts have a couple days to present their defense. After the defense is presented, there's the disciplinary council, formed by 2 other people, and the person in charge (Senan here), offers them two or three possible actions to be taken regarding that specific problem.

The council will vote, and if there's a tie, the disciplinary director has the tiebreaker and decide. Not only the person is informed of the situation, but there's a public announcement stating the facts, what happened, the culprit, the disciplinary action taken, be it a warning, a suspension, a fine, etc.

I think we wouldn't have this uproar here if we had this procedure. Sure, it's not nice to single out people online, but this would be part of being in the Temple. By being here, you have to accept these terms, and if you do something against the Terms of Use or against the Rules, you are subject to disciplinary action, and this action WILL BE announced to everyone.

Those are my two cents.

Its not your place to tell people whats worthy of their attention and what isnt. 9 pages in 2 or 3 days means there are people who feel its worth their attention, your comment is insulting to all of us. And since it obviously needs to be spelled out for you, here it is: Kyrin and the general topic of how to deal with difficult interactions is in fact very much an important discussion around here. The ONLY replies in this thread so far that have been bad uses of time have been the ones suggesting this conversation is unworthy.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.urbandictionary.com/define.php%3fterm=busybody&=true

My biggest gripe about this particular situation is that i see an excellent opportunity being wasted. An opportunity for Kyrin, for certain specific other members, and an opportunity for the community as a whole, but im short on time (which is the main reason i havent said anything here yet) and the post will take quite a bit of effort to write out. Im going do it though, as soon as i am able...hopefully tonight. Inthe mean time, anyone who thinks this discussion is beneath them, please dont hesitate to promptly frolic off and do something more useful with yourself than snub your oh-so-magnificent nose at us pleabs.

OB1Shinobi wrote: Its not your place to tell people whats worthy of their attention...

Tellahane wrote: just as an opinion to share...

Thank you for both the lol and the reminder

This post is probably a long time coming, but some recent conversations along with some recent changes in my medical situation have motivated me to dispense with the diplomatic back and forth and just tell it how it is from my perspective.

I’ve been led to believe that Kyrin’s ban is not permanent, but I only have a vague idea of what it will take to allow her back here. Im told she should officially appeal, so i will be doing that on Kyrin’s behalf because i believe there is value in her participation here. For what its worth, she wants to be here. Enough so that she is willing to work with people to reestablish respect and trust even in instances of disagreement. The way we are handling this does not make it easy for her (or anyone really) to establish that trust with the leadership here. This needs to change, and Im ready to lead the way.

Ive had conversations about this with members and Councillors alike. What Ive discovered is that some of her adversaries here also want to see her welcomed back, but with some changes to her behavior. There is still hope for constructive interaction and there is wisdom to share.

Some Councillors feel that because Kyrin does not see value in persuing rank or Knighthood here any longer that there is no point in her being here at all. There is some truth to the idea that she does not exemplify what a TOTJO Jedi should be and doesn’t wish to, but i dont think that is reason enough to exclude her from participation. Other Councillors believe she is toxic and is only here to cause trouble and push an anti establishment agenda. There is some truth to this too, but i still feel that there is value in the challenge she presents to us as leaders and Jedi. She makes us take a stand for who we are and defend our beliefs.

So here it is. Kyrin should be allowed back and we all should invest our efforts in making her presence worth while. It will take a lot of effort and work on her part. We should work with her to improve her communication and work on our own tendencies to be impatient and judgemental. I want to prove that we can overcome conflicts like this. I want to accept this challenge. With that in mind, Im officially endorsing Kyrin’s return, but i am just one vote.

Time to hear your honest opinions, Jedi. No need to be politically correct or overly diplomatic. Councillors, Knights, Apprentices, members... Enemies of Kyrin and friends... Say your piece and be genuine. Be honest. Should Kyrin be allowed back? Why or why not? What will it take for her to prove herself worthy of being in this Temple again?

First, most of what you describe doesn't sound much at all like what Kyrin would have said if it were her posting. I'm half suspecting your appeal is a result of something she's told you to instill some kind of "guilt challenge", a common method for pulling someone's arm to do what they want.

Second, people say that this temple is a safe space. I don't think Kyrin is here to support that, unless its her own opinions and demands that the temple ought to protect and bow to. What she thinks she's "challenging" the temple to do I don't believe has to do with anything except validating her ego as an attempted "revolutionary" for the community (something we've had with others before). You either have a "safe space" or you have a community open to be challenged and "revolted" when people think they would like to try. The two don't go together. So she either puts away the agenda, or the temple puts away the haven (and I don't see that one happening anytime soon).

Honestly though, if it were up to me, she would spend a notable amount of time away from this temple to experience at least a couple new important chapters naturally in her own life that might teach her things only they can teach before she returns to see if she still feels she is "above the establishment". This is something many people here have done on their own, going away and coming back later with a new perspective.

There was a period of time, shortly after becoming your apprentice, Senan, that Kyrin did show some change. It did seem that Kyrin wanted to change, and I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt, let bygones be bygones, and let them turn over a new leaf. We all need that sometimes.

However, then Kyrin reverted back into old habits, as we all do from time to time when trying to undergo change. I am also in such a process, your words a few weeks ago about my current state in the TotJO really being a wake up call to become more... diplomatic rather than militaristic. lol.

Perhaps this ban, as temporary as it may be, can serve as such a wake up call, despite it not being their first. Kyrin knew that they should behave, to honour you as your Apprentice, and to not make you out to be a fool. I hope the actions that led up to this ban were not a revoking of such ideas, but a massive slip up.

I do, however, believe the ban should be a little longer term yet. Give them some time to think, tp communicate with yourself, Senan, and to work on how to act here while outside the TotJO so that, when Kyrin returns, they can avoid such unpleasantness in the future (much like how a boxer trains outside the ring before entering so to better handle oneself when pushed into the ring).

Not like I have much say in the matter, but as we all know I grapple with Kyrin a lot, so I hope one can see I am speaking not out of any sort of bias in Kyrin's favour. I've seen this place quiet of late, it is serene, people are training, encouraging others, and there isn't the normal crashing waves Kyrin is prone to start. I hope this time away from the TotJO can either help Kyrin learn to change course, or decide this course is not the right one for them.

EDIT: and, perhaps Kyrin should consider if Knighthood really is the best option for them. It would, in the end, involve the one thing Kyrin does not want to do and has fought against doing for a while now. There is no shame in saying this isn't the right Path for you, but one needs to be honest with oneself in order to do so.