So, is Kyrin banned forever, or what?

"So here it is. Kyrin should be allowed back and we all should invest our efforts in making her presence worth while."

Your opinion thus far, let's just make that clear...

And putting her time being here worthwhile on the rest of our shoulders is complete crap, do I really need to go into why?

Who here is making a sincere effort to make my time worthwhile? Who?

Im not expecting anyone to answer that, simply because I don't base the value of my time here on the opinions of the majority of the active membership...

I'm not here because I care what the majority of the active membership think about me, I'm here for the few who show that spark and get it. I've made that known plenty of times...

If your biggest reason for being here is to have your existence validated by the active membership, sooner or later, your going to walk away angry and disgruntled. People like that need to spend more time offline and get their lives in order, and maby even get some professional help...

With that siad, I've told you I don't have a problem with her coming back, IF she makes a sincere effort to cut the shit and at least attempt to fit in, instead of using the TOTJO as her daily megaphone picking out every little detail she doesn't agree with regarding the council, or the Knights, or guest and membership posts. It's beyond old....

I didn't want to engage her, nor did I think it was "my right" as a Knight, cause let's be honest, rank had nothing to do with it. Same goes for my apprentices. I engaged because she went UNCHECKED for weeks and weeks at a time. Spin was gone for weeks, with little noticeable involvement with yourself....

People, members and Knights included have logged off and stayed off as a result. I suppose I should have joined them, my stupidity for having not done so....

In no way am I suggesting we close off and block her out, however The needs of the one should not outweigh the needs of the many, and I've got to question the agenda of individuals who think otherwise...

So... Is she going to come back and make any attempts at changing her behavior?

I don't think it should be a requirement that she remain an apprentice and attempt to get Knighted, but if she isn't interested, then her rank needs to be changed...

I'm all for her return, but i seriously suggest you get active and involved with her "offline" life as her tm, and encourage her to get her life together. This temple can't be her outlet for aggression, I did the exact same thing, for months. I had to willingly have my account deleted and leave for six months to realize this.

I personally think she could use 6 months away. If we let her back in now, and she carry's herself in the exact same fashion, WE as a Temple are not doing Her any favors...

Thank you for the candid response, Zenchi. I am working with Kyrin offline, but there is more work to do there as well. I appreciate you questioning my intentions. It is important for me to know when my bias is showing. That is why I asked for genuine feedback. I want this decision to be in the Temple’s best interest, not mine.

I don't have access to pretty much anything anymore so I don't know exactly what the recent transgressions are I can only theorize. But theories won't apply to this reply as none of it is fact.

I don't think Kyrin knows what Kyrin actually wants. I think there are idea's, vague ones maybe, I think that kyrin is doing the best that they can at figuring that out or believes they do.

When I look at this temple nowadays I see it as I see my living room. Now since everyone's living room may be different depending on what country your in I'll give a bit of explanation.

Living room for me is right by my front door, when someone shows up and wants to visit or talk or spend time they come in and sit in the living room and we talk and chat. It's the place where I welcome you in to discuss things with me, talk, share, experience and so on. The place where I learn, you learn, we learn. Place of peace, place of conflict sometimes, place of interaction.

The thing about my living room however is that I'm the one that opens the door and lets you in, if you want to show up after 5 that door will be locked and I won't even likely answer it.

There are days I wouldn't mind talking with kyrin about things, discussion and so on, I've even had a few good discussions in PM. However kyrin also likes to just walk in your front door without asking and force conflict. Kyrin also likes to come to the front door selling cookies and then walk in and tell you that everything you believe in is false. Kyrin isn't very...genuine in intent. At least not with me anyway.

Senan, you mention that Kyrin is here and serves a purpose in challenging us. Well the thing about that is there are Kyrin's out there everywhere. There are people who will challenge your beliefs everywhere, there are ones at work, there are ones out in public when your filling up gas in your car, there are ones that walk by your house on neighborhood walks daily. I still have 3 jobs so I have 3x as many of those out there. I get challenged on the regular. But I don't invite those challenges into my living room, my living room is where I can be in peace with myself and grow myself in an environment suitable for doing so.

Just like one might go to a Dojo to practice martial arts, or one might go to a peaceful place to meditate, or to a special class to yoga, we don't expect nor want someone to come in and tell us were doing it wrong, or interrupt us to tell us about the great and powerful lord c3-po. There should be more..."designated" area's of the temple designed for such "intrusions" and the rest should be more for purely growth. I and I think many others feel like this isn't a place where we can come and meditate, come and train, come and study anymore its a place where we come and find someone to give us private advice instead and do as much as we can in skype, or discord, or other places privately. I mean thats what apprenticeship has turned into for majority of us I think is find someone here then go off and separate from the temple to find your peace, yourself, your training, and don't come back till your done because it will just make things worse honestly.

Kyrin is one of those people who makes things worse. I don't think Kyrin ever wanted to be a "TOTJO Knight", if such a thing has even yet to be determined or spelled out. I think maybe Kyrin was going for it just to prove how much a fallacy what a TOTJO knight actually is because it doesn't have a true definition anymore. It's Kyrin's Intent that is more up for question.

Do I think there are some awesome discussions that could be had with Kyrin sure, do I think there are things people can learn from Kyrin, Yes, Do I think that Kyrin could have a purpose here, probably, but not as an apprentice/knight/novice or anything related to rank because Kyrin is not truly here for that, and I think that Kyrin's rank and level of access should reflect that.

People want a living room, not everyone has access to one, not everyone has even had one before who comes here. I'm not calling or asking for "safe spaces that are 100% proof" because those don't exist. But we should still encourage growing and learn environments that people feel comfortable in. They are going to run into their own conflicts every time they step out the door to explore the world we live in, we don't need to force anyone to have one of their own.

I would be fine with Kyrin being unbanned(not that I have any say as a guest), but I would strongly encourage that it be on the basis of being a guest, and unless Kyrin can prove that Kyrin supports the temple and its growth irregardless of Kyrin's own views that Kyrin doesn't become a member until doing so. If Kyrin decides to re-push for actually becoming an apprentice and knight it needs to be with proof of effort that Kyrin is intending to grow to be a "TOTJO Knight" and not just a symbol of Kyrin's agenda instead. It's not impossible but its a much different path then the rest of us, and I Think a far more difficult one.

You gotta think, if this were a physical temple, the knights would be the ones responsible for sweeping the floors, lighting the candles, replacing old candles, dusting the walls and furniture, doing laundry if there was any, putting time and effort into providing an environment of peace, learning, growth and support. People who would barge in screaming would be approached and worked with the moment they came in the door, not left in a corner to continue to scream and yell and throw fits.

Just because this isn't physical doesn't mean we(the temple) can't do the same thing. If it is going un-checked as described by zenchi and what I saw in personal experience then it's no wonder people leave.

Yes conflict needs to happen on occasion its a part of life, but its apart of everyone's lives here whether they are at the temple or not, it was there before they even joined for the first time, lets not be disillusioned to that fact. We don't need to provide any more of it here.

If Kyrin truly wants to grow then Kyrin needs to take the time and effort and listen to the people Kyrin is trying to learn from, until Kyrin can take the stance that Kyrin does not know whats best for Kyrin's path and to actually take a leap of faith in trusting someone else, Kyrin will not grow. At least not in this path, and maybe Kyrin just needs to realize that maybe this isn't the path for Kyrin.

Love the living room comparison, Tella. Very, very well said.

When Kyrin was banned, it was suggested by me that she come up with lessons to deal with areas she needed growth in. That she do those lessons and that she apply what she learned. And that she come back and see Council when she felt sufficient time has passed to make the lessons of part of her.
The suggestion is pretty vague. But it has been my experience that assigning things doesn't work with her. so I won't assign lessons or suggest a deadline or anything of that nature. I know it's frustrating, but that's the best way that I know how to deal with Kyrin.
It's unlikely that my vote will change unless she does what I have asked.
Further, there are some things that will not change unless guidelines are not followed:
1. the council will still be here and the council will still be human
2. Zenchi and his apprentices will still be here
3. we will still act the way that we act according to the learning that we have done.

Key here is for each party to take responsibility for their words and actions. For no party to bear the burden of another.

Further still, this place exists to train Jedi. If she doesn't want to be a Jedi, we need to know why she is here. Because frankly, I am only interested in those who want to become Jedi and/or respect what we are trying to do here. The internet is plenty big for those who have a different mission.

Many of us have gone through the training here. We may not agree with it all or how its done or the governing of the Temple or any number of things. But we are here, working within the building and the structures because we are interested in the future of TOTJO and shoring up the areas of weakness. I'll be the first to tell you that this is a slow process. But that is what commitment is, to my mind.

Just for the record, does everyone else who is not training to become a Jedi here also have to justify their being here?

Also, can we at last please have it in written form, just what amount of speaking one's mind is permissible, and how much is too much?

And what ever happened to that saying about the effectivity of shows of force as an attempt to assert legitimacy of authority?

Gisteron wrote: Just for the record, does everyone else who is not training to become a Jedi here also have to justify their being here?

If I had to speculate I would believe the justification would be related specifically to ranks above or at membership. I doubt anyone would be against kyrin still being a guest here anymore then me or yourself gist.

Its easy to roll your eyes and look down your nose at someone from a distance.
Its easy to resent people in silence without taking initiative to improve the situation and its easy to speak against someone who people dislike from the safety of anonymity (on that note i would like to say THANK YOU to those of you who have come forward to voice your opinions.... publicly owning your view is a sign of integrity in my book).
Its much more challenging to reach out personally to someone, to invest in someone over time. Its easy for a teacher love the good kids, but its a more heroic teacher whp is able to look at the "bad kids" as being just as much (or more) in need of guidance as the good ones and to step up to that challenge.
And for the other kids, lol, well lets just say that its VERY difficult for most to maintain composure and give authentic but mature feedback to someone who really gets on their nerves.

Reaching out is not the same as bickering, btw (to those who read that and said "well but i tried to reason with her" or something similar): its not getting butthurt and hitting back with your own barbs to give someone a taste of their own medicine. Nor is it an intellectual battle or a set of "challenge questions" to show them the error of their thinking. How to confront someone who is (or simply who you feel) is mistreating you in a mature and healthy way is a necessary life skill, and one that a sizable portion of this community is clearly deficient in (Im not claiming mastery of this skill myself). Its also a skill which there is no safer or better environment to practice than right here. I know some will find this insulting somehow, but protecting people who could learn to protect themselves is psychological sabotage...youre helping to mess them up and youre probably trying to make yourself into some kind of hero/rescuer while youre at it. Being a mother-duck to adults or people growing into adulthood unhealthy for both them and for you. The best way to keep people safe is to help them to become more competent at taking care of themselves.

So to those who want to get rid of Kyrin in order that the little ducklings can have a safe place to swim, i think you should pragmatically consider the value provided by an opportunity for the ducklings to learn how to handle things for themselves. Maybe you should consider making a lesson out of it? Healthy Confrontation 101 - at the risk of redundancy there is such a thing! We all need to understand it.

Ive got one more point that i would like to make but i know that longer posts are less likely to be read so i will stop here. Thank you to EVERYONE who is contributing your views

The KEY here is train to be a Jedi and/or respect what we are trying to do here.

The PROBLEM was the behavior I have seen does not line up with that. The SOLUTION needs to be lining up with that.

Any questions as to what that means can be answered in that "Behavior Unbecoming" thread which one can find by clicking on the red announcement on the top.

I don't have a problem with anyone being here. I have a problem with blatant disrespect toward others who are here, regardless of rank.

I would ask anyone "why they were here" if on more than one occasion they said that the Temple didn't know how to train Jedi, had no right training Jedi or suggesting lessons, or suggested that I Or anyone else was not Jedi enough.
Their assessment may be right, but then they could also put their energy somewhere else. Somewhere they believed in.
I can tell you that I haven't any problem with people speaking their mind. Part of diplomacy is the manner in which you engage.
Kyrin has a lot to offer. Much of her issue is delivery for which SHE ALONE is responsible. She can learn to adjust fire according to the person who she is speaking to. All of us have to learn that. If you one wants to be received, one must also be receptive and make one's words receivable As best as one can
Its incombent upon the writer to know the audience and adjust their manner accordingly. Or...or, the people in the room, the receiver, will become defensive.

One answer is to lower defenses. Fair enough, but history makes us heighten them. One feels the potential to get bitten to be so much higher if they have been bitten before.

Its not only Kyrin who needs to learn a lesson or two. Its all of us as well. Communication, Diplomacy, and getting away from the fear that can cloud our judgement.

As I see it, we may all have a lot of work to do. This has been and I hope will continue to be a period of reflection. Lifting the ban too soon can almost guarantee a return to our old ways. None of us will have learned well what is needed

Others may have different opinions which is why I am only one vote of 12

Rosalyn J wrote: The KEY here is train to be a Jedi and/or respect what we are trying to do here.

The PROBLEM was the behavior I have seen does not line up with that. The SOLUTION needs to be lining up with that.

Any questions as to what that means can be answered in that "Behavior Unbecoming" thread which one can find by clicking on the red announcement on the top.

I don't have a problem with anyone being here. I have a problem with blatant disrespect toward others who are here, regardless of rank.

I would ask anyone "why they were here" if on more than one occasion they said that the Temple didn't know how to train Jedi, had no right training Jedi or suggesting lessons, or suggested that I Or anyone else was not Jedi enough.
Their assessment may be right, but then they could also put their energy somewhere else. Somewhere they believed in.
I can tell you that I haven't any problem with people speaking their mind. Part of diplomacy is the manner in which you engage.
Kyrin has a lot to offer. Much of her issue is delivery for which SHE ALONE is responsible. She can learn to adjust fire according to the person who she is speaking to. All of us have to learn that. If you one wants to be received, one must also be receptive and make one's words receivable As best as one can
Its incombent upon the writer to know the audience and adjust their manner accordingly. Or...or, the people in the room, the receiver, will become defensive.

One answer is to lower defenses. Fair enough, but history makes us heighten them. One feels the potential to get bitten to be so much higher if they have been bitten before.

Its not only Kyrin who needs to learn a lesson or two. Its all of us as well. Communication, Diplomacy, and getting away from the fear that can cloud our judgement.

As I see it, we may all have a lot of work to do. This has been and I hope will continue to be a period of reflection. Lifting the ban too soon can almost guarantee a return to our old ways. None of us will have learned well what is needed

Others may have different opinions which is why I am only one vote of 12

I know this extremely poisonous snake is wrapped around m y leg, but rather then do something about it, this is an excellent time to see how deadly this venom is, let's provoke it into biting me and see make sure I describe the sensations and everything that happens so that when I'm dead moments later we can all learn how lethal this snake is. For the sake of learning!!!!

Sarcasm point aside, if it's such an important lesson and such a big deal then why is kyrin banned instead of going at the conflict that is so important to learn from...