So, is Kyrin banned forever, or what?

Hmm I'm not 100% sure how my post generated that response.

What I was thinking of were courses and lessons for us which deal with our own weaknesses in diplomacy and conflict management. We could do this while Kyrin works on the areas she needs to grow in.

My post may have been too long but that was the point of the last bit

Indeed, Ros, but Kyrin has been many chances to do just that, and the community has had to suffer the punches when slip ups happen.

We have tried different methods, but in the end it usually devolves into personal attacks on Kyrins part. We should not have to take these, to be attacked while we do our own thing. Sometimes one can argue someone instigated, but a personal attack is against the rules, and is never acceptable. It is all of us against an idea, not against each other.

Perhaps Kyrin does need to work on these areas. And Kyrin has displayed that they can play nice... for a while. If Kyrin really wants to be a part of this place, then perhaps some time away will do them good while they work on these flaws, honestly work on them, and come back better for it. If not, as mentioned by others before, there are other places that will accept Kyrin as is.

Tolerance is great and all, but as the saying goes, fool me once, shame on you... fool me twice.... or three time... or four.... how many times does it take before enough is enough? How many attacks against members of this community does it take until tolerance goes too far? Eventually a cornered and beaten dog will bite back, so why do we, the community, have to silently accept such treatment when all they want is to peacefully train towards their goals of Knighthood? If Kyrin was merely a guest, with no history or friends here, would such attacks be allowed?

I say this not to create conflict. It is merely a matter of changing perspective. Many people call for Kyrin to be unbanned, but what of those banned for doing the exact same things, just without the history and friends from within to call for such an unbanning? Why the different standard?

EDIT: I'd love, however, to be proven wrong by Kyrin. But eventually one has to stand up and say enough.

FINAL EDIT: There is a very simple way, when the time comes, to see if Kyrin really has changed and intends to pursue Knighthood here, and we all know it.

I don't know, something about quick and simple tongue cutting solution just doesn't make me take the entire "this is a learning opportunity for all of us" mantra particularly seriously. Were it not for this thread, I don't think anyone involved in this decision would have spent another thought on it. After all, noone is entitled to access to their account here, much less a trial. Everyone can be suspended at any time, for any amount of time, with and without any purpose or reason. Noone has to justify their administrative choice before anyone else either.

And yet...
Here we are.
Pocketing Prideful Platitudes from People of Power and Prominence who but Parented the Present Predicament.
Meanwhile, the only ones practicing any actual "diplomacy" are the few high ranking dissenters who may or may not have something to lose over all of this and thus pick their words with some care.
Why?

What way remains there for her to yet be wrong about this place?

I sure wish people were this interested in me.


Perhaps we all need a bit of time IRL for some perspective.

Kyrin has been banned from an online philosophy/religion forum for being a pest - not thrown from a monastery, the only safe haven with fresh water and baked bread, left to fight off wolves and bandits alone in the world, to die, unmarked and unnoticed.

I get Ob1's position (to a certain extent), that no one can decide what isn't relevant or worthwhile, but apparently the "rabble" can decide what is, and often otherwise sensible people can get caught up in baying for blood.

We love grumbling about our "bosses", and, really, the best thing to do as a "boss" is just let it happen - only rarely just dissent at the water cooler turn into a violent revolt and warfare across the office space.

I like Kyrin. Sometimes clever and (it seems to me) a bit insightful. Sometimes a massive antagonistic PITA just for the sake of it.

but I really have no idea if this thread and this "issue" is about Kyrin at all, or sulking about TotJO Leadership...

I'll say this a bit more plainly:
1. The lessons on diplomacy and conflict resolution etc would be done during the time in which Kyrin's ban is still in effect and we will HOPEFULLY put what we learn into practice if
/when she returns. The same as I am asking her.
2. I am not suggesting we tolerate her behavior. Behavior Unbecoming is just that and will be treated as such.

Yet we cannot ignore that there is a 11 page thread on this and we are struggling with what we want as a community.

I'm not going to lie. I have enjoyed the peace. There is a noticeable change here. Like the Temple has taken a sigh. It hasn't quite recovered enough to expend the energy to deal with Kyrin. Its why I will not consent to her return until she can deliver some lessons on the areas of growth she has to work on.

While she does that, we can also work on how we communicate and practice diplomacy and deal with conflict by taking online courses or doing some lessons. I'm just saying. Kyrin will not be the only disagreeable person we come in contact with, here or offline. So its good to have tools.

This is my opinion, suggestion, etc

About Kyrin not wanting to be a Jedi: of course she wants to be a Jedi, she's inn her second apprenticeship, isnt she? What happened was that she was denied Jedi status after completing an apprenticeship to the satisfaction of her TM. Its my understanding that this TM chose to leave this community to a great degree as a consequence of that denial. Which is a damn shame because Alan is a SMART dude who brough a lot of value to the community. But hey, c'est la vie, that moment os gone so kiss auntie Anicca and move on with life. And im not even saying the decision to deny her Knighthood was wrong- people made thr decision they felt was best and things are what they are, my only point here is that she stopped pursuing Jedi status because she felt (correctly or incorrectly) that ever being accepted as one was a path that was barred to her, and so she adapted.

This is a place of learning, right? Well, Kyrin is being given an important opportunity to learn that if she wants to be accepted in a community then there is a bare minimum of social tact to which she needs to adhere. Figuring out exactly where that line is has been a point of contention since before i created an account here, and my guess is that it will always be a "work in progress" for reasons too complicated to get into atm, but even i can agree she crosses it sometimes. So maybe nows the time for her to learn that it matters.

Shes also not super receptive to feedback, ESPECIALLY from people she suspects (correctly, more often than not) are resentful of her. So maybe how to take some feedback is also a necessary lesson for her. I think so. I also think its likely that this situation is effectively stressing the importance of that to her right now.

But as Rosalyn J mentioned, Kyrin isnt the only one who has an opportunity to learn here. Id really like to see us find a compassionate, Jedi-like way of handling this. A way that aims for win/win, and I dont think an indefinite ban is the best that we can do. Rosalyn; i disagree with your ultimate conclusion about keeping her banned but i think your contributions to this discussion have been really fantastic, for whatever that may be worth to you.

I dont really think its possible to learn conflict resolution without actual conflict. You can practice some drills and memorize some catch phrase responses, but conflict is a kind of stress and the only way to adapt to stress is to be under stress. The thing itself is what acclimates and conditions you to it.

BUT; im not even saying she should be allowed back under the assumption that everyone else should be expected to learn conflict resolution by being in conflict with her. I think this is an important moment for her, a moment where she has to decide if she wants to be a part of a community or not (any community, ever, because this need for tact is a truism for all of them) and if so if its worth it to her to make some adjustments to her presentation. It seems to me that the win/win solution would be for her to decide that she does want this and that she is prepared to make adjustments, (win for her) while the Temple also learns how to target the behavior without abandoning the person. A way to set boundaries while maintaining the relationship (win for TOTJO). For all the talk of forgiveness and patience id think some of the folks around here would be more than happy for the opportunity to shownthat they know what compassion or forgiveness mean.

Gisteron wrote: ....Were it not for this thread, I don't think anyone involved in this decision would have spent another thought on it....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8h_v_our_Q

Not that im expecting that much support, lol

Id also like to refer you to her AMA thread -- but the gull-dern search function is just not very accommodating It used to be 1000000x better simply because if you at least knew who said whatever it was you were looking for then you could sesrch that persons posts.. I REALLY wish the powers that be would return the "search forum posts" or "all posts by this user" function.

Anyway, in that thread she mentioned that she is autism spectrum. This is an established medical condition that makes learning the ins and outs of socialization - including learning how to relate to people - more difficult. Its a BIOLOGICAL condition originating in the brain. Ive seen a lot of talk here over the years about people having to live with medical conditions and a lot of talk about accepting people who have them. Id say this is a time where the community is being challenged to find a way to live up to its ideals.

OB1Shinobi wrote: Id also like to refer you to her AMA thread -- but the gull-dern search function is just not very accommodating It used to be 1000000x better simply because if you at least knew who said whatever it was you were looking for then you could sesrch that persons posts.. I REALLY wish the powers that be would return the "search forum posts" or "all posts by this user" function.

I did a bit of a search myself for you (I can usually find just about anything using it as it is), turn up empty handed. I do not recall Kyrin doing an AMA. (do you remember any questions within it? could help)

EDIT: Also, there is such a method. Go to search, type in their name, click the 'exact name' button below it. Then in the search date field you can change it to any length, including to the beginning of all their posts, then press search. Should show literally everything they've posted (save things you cannot see normally (within Apprentice/Knight/Council Chambers). Just for future reference for all wondering how to do it.

I must admit...I am surprised this thread is still going. I mean....11 pages now to discuss someone who is not here or able to speak for and/or defend herself. We all have our opinions about eachother, I could give a list of both good and bad for a number of you....but only Kyrin seems to be getting the whammy of judgments....heck, even hannigan didn't get a thread oh so dedicated to him like this and he 1 up's Kyrin any day under the sun haha

Just....you know....Thinking out loud.