So, is Kyrin banned forever, or what?

Do they work?

They probably only work as well as the effort that is put into utilizing their lessons.

Also, I'm all for discussing conflict management, but the topic of Kyrin's banning is pretty stale. Haven't all the questions been answered, in that regard?

They probably only work as well as the effort that is put into utilizing their lessons.

Ah. Points for Effort sort of thing.


I feel like saying "Well at least I'm trying to do conflict resolution!" to someone you're in a conflict with is about as useful as telling your wife to "calm down" :laugh:

It is a strange concept to me that all Jedi are not vested in various forms of conflict resolution, but I model some of my own studies after the mythology. That is not for everyone.

I would think here, of all places(like any church I have every attended of any faith ever) people would go out of their way to be polite and encourage positive discussion, or at the very least, keep their mouth shut if they have nothing positive to add.

I find tearing people apart, especially people who are new to the idea of thinking things out, is cruel and counter productive.

"Well its just words. No one was REALLY hurt." is laziness in the area of humanity.

For the record, I have no idea what happened and have no problem with Kyrin.

To address Rugadd and conflict resolution:

It's not uncommon. People feel less constrained by social conventions on the internet, some studies suggest we have the equivalent of the attachment to a potato as we do to each other on the internet, and when you read something on the internet your personal mood impacts the tone you read it it.

The same statement is read in your voice and your tone, not theirs, as a result, arguments on the internet spiral very quickly. If I'm upset, for me to read "How's it going" can easily be read as a snarky "I know you're having a bad day, but let me rub it in" comment as opposed to a genuine question. Let us then compound the fact that a majority of us spend a great deal of time in front of our computers or have our phones on us 24/7. In a normal argument, I can walk out of a room and I'm disengaged, on the internet I carry it with me. It's extremely hard to walk away and calm down, it's extremely hard to get away from even if we know as a rational human we should.

To put it bluntly, the reason why de-escalation is a problem online, you are getting mad at a potato that follows you around that you also have to read the replies for in your already angry voice to carry on the argument.

It takes a lot of time to learn how to de-escalate, it's a constant battle and many of us give in sometimes, but it's important to, as many of our texts tell us, to become an observer of our actions (he says, knowing full well he's recently gotten into his fair share of internet fights.) It's a learning process for everyone and it's completely different from being in a church in real life unfortunately.

To add on again, this is especially true when you are discussing deeply held beliefs or memories. They are part of who and what you are and for people to question it, it can easily be seen as a personal attack or something that you have to defend tooth and nail. There's a line in "Freedom From the Known" by Krishnamurti that discusses how we don't want to change because we're afraid of being wrong. Fear is an extremely potent tool, and unfortunately it also means we fight tooth and nail over it. The angrier we get, we begin to lose the thin veneer of civility because, again, a potato is telling us we are wrong and damn it, I'm going to make some french fries with that little devil if he doesn't stop insulting me. :laugh:

“It takes a lot of time to learn how to de-escalate, it's a constant battle and many of us give in sometimes, but it's important to, as many of our texts tell us, to become an observer of our actions...”
Man oh man !!! I love this ! I stand true to my faith that this place gives me so much every chance I search for it . I myself have this battle and I believe I will “dance with this dinosaur “ till the day I pass to the next journey of life. Mean while , I shall learn from those in the same place and the same struggles as me. Thank you so much Nakis for your Jedi ism . Truly - I am better today for having you in my path. May the force we share seek and serve find us both as we seek it !

Tearing ideas apart is not the same as tearing apart people, though. Too often have I seen confusions of this kind occur here. If people identify so much with their ideas, that attacking those ideas happens to hurt their feelings, that's just too bad but by no means the attacker's responsibility.
I don't know if Kyrin went after anyone personally, and if she did, so be it, fair enough. I recall no such instance from the threads I have followed in the past where she made a significant contribution, nor would I expect that from her anyhow, but maybe that was changing in latter days, maybe my assessment of her character is out of date. Since I am also lazy to search for evidence on behalf of the accusation, I'm happy to admit that I can make no unbiased judgement on her case, and wait if someone else cares enough about settling but one unimportant opinion on the matter, to repost records of her misconduct to the public.
In the meantime, I do remember that I was once accused of being too aggressive with my own flavour of "you're talking nonsense", too. The furthest I went was to call someone a liar for openly lying about things on record in the thread of concern or a recent other one. And I, too, was suspended, albeit for a brief while rather than permanently. My wording may have gotten marginally smoother as a result (though I still have more of a problem with shamelessly dishonest folk than with calling people out for it), but my spirit none the weaker. If someone feels that there ought not be intellectual objections or challenges to a specific idea they voice for the public to discuss, I have no reservations at all in saying they are wrong. We have journals and sermon sections that provide ample opportunity to express oneself in safety, without any risk of [dramatic pause] discussion. The discussion forums are no such space and, in my humble opinion, mustn't be, if this place is to remain one of growth. Civility and dignified mature conduct are all good and well, and I believe there is no liberal argument by which one would rightly make a fair and square discourse, passionate though it may become, out to be a violation of either. But it has happened before. Include here some poetic comment about mindfulness.

Rather than rehash a bunch of old drama, I'll just say that there were instances when Kyrin's choice of words when communicating where called into question. She was accused of being too harsh and attacking people who were unprepared for that type of conflict. This judgement was subjective, and in and of itself is not a good reason to suspend or ban her. What happened though, is a hostile relationship formed between Kyrin and the people who were always calling out her behavior, and people started attacking each other personally rather than discussing the ideas. Name calling and personal insults were thrown about, not only by Kyrin. Regretfully, (by that I mean I regret) she was the common denominator in enough situations that she took the punishment that could've been spread among any number of other offenders.

The decision was made and the action was taken, so now we are left to attempt to understand how things got to this point and how we can do better in the future. For starters, I 100% agree that anyone who puts an idea or opinion out there in the forum should be prepared to have the idea challenged. The forum is not a sacred space. It is meant for discussion. We should maintain cordiality and compassion for each other, but we can also disagree and say as much. We should be able to debate and have our ideas called into question without it resulting in hurt feelings or turning into juvenile bickering and name calling.

Should anyone here misunderstand this or have an issue with the way someone is responding to their opinions in the forum, they can contact me, JLSpinner, or another Councillor to help them get it resolved in a peaceful and respectful manner.