So, is Kyrin banned forever, or what?

Gisteron wrote: I don't train here. My lifestyle is not being created here, not in latter years, barely much even in the earlier. Nor is much of my betterment, frankly.

Gisteron, are you openly admitting that this site and the people here are not in any way, shape or form contributing to your life improving? Even to a small degree?

If that's the case (I did say if) why then are you here? What's the motivation behind staying if none of it assists you in becoming a better individual?

I was at times more aggressive and coarse than Kyrin was, at other times less, and I have a far longer history doing what she does here by the sheer amount of time that passed between my own registration and hers. Yet, here I am, questioning the leadership's leadership skills, challenging the authoritarian approach to authority yet again, calling people arrogant and hypocritical.
Yet, nowhere do I see anyone's petition to get me removed also. What, have you not quite enough evidence on my case?

To be honest, both your name and my own has been on the table, multiple times. To my memory, the difference being we didn't go at it for as long as she has, constantly unchecked. Rules have also changed here since your last visit, thankfully, and I say that admitting I realize I am not free from blame and am partially responsible for the change. (See terms of use in the header) This has been a LONG time coming, and is forcing/encouraging a few of us to re evaluate our word's, as well as how we interact with others and carry ourselves...

Zenchi wrote: Gisteron, are you openly admitting that this site and the people here are not in any way, shape or form contributing to your life improving? Even to a small degree?

If that's the case (I did say if) why then are you here? What's the motivation behind staying if none of it assists you in becoming a better individual?

I'm inclined to agree with you here Zenchi. If this place and the people don't help you, then there probably isn't much point coming here. Though some people don't necessarily need a point I guess. I'm not fussed why other people are here. Just why I am.

My biggest issue with this whole thing is that, if I'm being honest, looking at things from a pretty selfish perspective, I'd say there are probably about five people here tops, who routinely offer me some kind of point for being here. Of which, you are one (lucky you)! Everyone else is just a friend.

My problem, is that I'd also class Kyrin as one of the people giving me a point for being here. So now I'm down to four. A couple more bans, or people leaving and I'll be left with no point for being here. Sad.

Also, if we'd applied the new rules and been so strict in upholding them several years ago, isn't it possible that people like and you and Gist may have been banned for much longer periods of time? Which may have detracted you from returning? So we wouldn't have you guys here now. Which would be super sad because you're both AWESOME contributors!

I'd hate to think that we missed out on the next Zenchi or Gisteron just because we lost patience with someone.

I also really just want as many 'points' to be here as possible, because everyone I like keeps leaving :laugh:

Brick wrote: Also, if we'd applied the new rules and been so strict in upholding them several years ago, isn't it possible that people like and you and Gist may have been banned for much longer periods of time? Which may have detracted you from returning? So we wouldn't have you guys here now. Which would be super sad because you're both AWESOME contributors!

I can already think of a few people I've met in the few years ive been here who aren't around because the rules weren't enforced at such a level. Ones that I would think would have been excellent contributors here as well. That view can go either direction

Consider also those who cannot/do not stay to form relationships.
The behavior unbecoming guidelines aren't so difficult to follow. They come down to: you may question ideas and even attack their validity, but not the people behind them. Personal attacks, in my mind, eat away at the fortitude of people. In other words "sticks and stones my ass". In a place where all you have is words, words take on that much more power.

The Behavior Unbecoming took a few minutes to write and a few hours to approve and I wish we had done it much sooner.

Rosalyn J wrote: Consider also those who cannot/do not stay to form relationships.
The behavior unbecoming guidelines aren't so difficult to follow. They come down to: you may question ideas and even attack their validity, but not the people behind them. Personal attacks, in my mind, eat away at the fortitude of people. In other words "sticks and stones my ass". In a place where all you have is words, words take on that much more power.

The Behavior Unbecoming took a few minutes to write and a few hours to approve and I wish we had done it much sooner.

As do I, but progress is progress! Keep it up!

Rosalyn J wrote: Consider also those who cannot/do not stay to form relationships.
The behavior unbecoming guidelines aren't so difficult to follow. They come down to: you may question ideas and even attack their validity, but not the people behind them. Personal attacks, in my mind, eat away at the fortitude of people. In other words "sticks and stones my ass". In a place where all you have is words, words take on that much more power.

The Behavior Unbecoming took a few minutes to write and a few hours to approve and I wish we had done it much sooner.

I appreciate the comments in my last post may have come across as if I disapprove/disagree with the introduction of Behaviour Unbecoming. That was not my intention. As I've stated in previous posts within this thread I agree with it, and also accept that Kyrin broke the terms laid out by it and was therefore banned.

My issue is and has always been the duration of the ban. I fully appreciate that Behaviour Unbecoming simply reinforces/makes official what we have always expected from our members. But it was only introduced a week or so before Kyrin was banned. So this is her first actual breaking of the newly introduced rules. An indefinite ban seems a little extreme IMO.

I fully accept your comments Tellahane, that there may be hundreds of thousands of awesome people that don't stick around. That's perfectly valid. But we don't know if that's the case (I guess we'll find out over the duration of this banning).

However, we do know that Kyrin sticks around, and has done for a considerable amount of time. She also actively contributes. She's also at least committed enough to training to have actually completed an apprenticeship here too. And yet we're showing her the door for breaking rules we've already admitted loads of others have broken and faced no consequence, and the off chance that she may or may not be responsible for some people leaving?

In that case, can I request that I be banned too? I'm pretty confident that I've broken the rules a couple of times. And whilst I don't believe I was the sole reason for Nami leaving, I was certainly the final straw. So I'm also responsible for nice people leaving here. My crimes (and the crimes of probably about half the membership at one time or another) are the same as Kyrin's. Why aren't we all in trouble too?

Brick this may come off as annoyed or a lecture due to the shortness of the wording but I ask you to take it as an explanation and nothing more.
Are you implying that because hundreds or even thousands of people get away with varying acts that violate traffic rules or even criminal codes that the police should stop enforcing the law?
Do courts not take into account your history, your response at the time of correction, your knowledge of breaking the rules and various other aspects before passing judgment?
And before anyone says "we are not a court or the cops" I trust you are all wise enough to see the correlation.

The fact is that any rules you broke were either so borderline or so minor or you reacted in a positive way to the correction that it was not deemed needed to do anything further. On top of that, you do not have a history of regular contact with mods and admins asking you to rethink your style of communication with others.
Finally, as for Nami, no one violated the rules in that thread. If no rule violations upset someone to the point of leaving we cant stop that. It's sad but not the fault of anyone. Particularly when it was repeatedly attempted to be made clear that no one had any ill intent.

Frankly, if you violate the rules repeatedly, get caught repeatedly, get spoken to repeatedly, and then violate the rules repeatedly well something is going to happen and in this case its time away from the Temple.

But the mods, admins, council are human. We cannot see and catch it all, we all have different levels of tolerance for grey areas around the rules and we all have different styles of handling things. Sometimes one mindset wins over the others when we debate. Is it perfect? Nope. Will it always be fair and even-handed? Nope. Does that suck? Yes, it does. But we are working on it.

MadHatter wrote: Brick this may come off as annoyed or a lecture due to the shortness of the wording but I ask you to take it as an explanation and nothing more.

No worries Hatter, I know you well enough to know that you're not the sort Admittedly, I was being a tad over dramatic.

MadHatter wrote: Are you implying that because hundreds or even thousands of people get away with varying acts that violate traffic rules or even criminal codes that the police should stop enforcing the law?

No, there will always be people that get away with things and I don't believe that should result in the police just giving up. What I'm trying to say is that when the police do catch someone, whoever they are and however many of them there are, they should be punished in a consistent manner.

So if 8 people commit a crime, and 6 are caught, then alright 2 got away, but all 6 people caught should be punished. Alright, taking into account their level of involvement/past convictions they may get different sentences, but they should all get something. From the information available to me, I'm only aware of 1 person getting anything.

What we have here is a scenario where our 'police' (ie The Council/Mods/Sergeant At Arms) have all admitted to catching several 'criminals', and yet have only punished one of them. Which IRL would make a mockery of the whole justice system and have every member of the press knocking on the Police Station door asking 'why are you letting all these other people go free?!'

Also, the police don't generally lock people up and throw away the key indefinitely (at least not in the UK). Even life imprisonment actually has a number of years attached to it, with clear info on how to appeal/make bail etc. None of which seems to be present here.

I'm just asking for consistency and clarity. Which is something we can all acknowledge TotJO has never been very good at - and I appreciate the irony of me saying that as someone who is usually on the council's side yelling 'they don't need to explain themselves to you' at everyone :laugh: :laugh:

That irony is the exact reason I responded to this thread. Otherwise, I dislike the concept of speaking on a matter that in my eyes should be between the Council and banned party. I do not like getting into disciplinary matters ( or whatever we prefer to call them ) with anyone but the party or parties directly involved.

Trust me I share your frustration and am working to figure out a solution. I am admittedly not someone that is happy with how it was handled. Further, as someone trusted with particular jobs around the Temple I have to watch my wording and what information I put out there. Because anything I say could be construed as council stance or a rule when it merely my personal view.

So in the light of limits on what I feel is appropriate to say I will say this. Sometimes someone can be driving too fast for conditions on the road and a cop can ticket them on it. Here that is much harder to do with grey areas of the rules. Worse its harder to write a rule for every situation or a rule that is not too vague as to be able to be abused by someone with a grudge. So that is how some people slip through the cracks even when they are seen. But I am personally working on that matter and doing my best to get something that will bring more clarity to things without becoming a giant list of rule or something so vague as to be useless.

Brick wrote:

Zenchi wrote: Gisteron, are you openly admitting that this site and the people here are not in any way, shape or form contributing to your life improving? Even to a small degree?

If that's the case (I did say if) why then are you here? What's the motivation behind staying if none of it assists you in becoming a better individual?

I'm inclined to agree with you here Zenchi. If this place and the people don't help you, then there probably isn't much point coming here. Though some people don't necessarily need a point I guess. I'm not fussed why other people are here. Just why I am.

My biggest issue with this whole thing is that, if I'm being honest, looking at things from a pretty selfish perspective, I'd say there are probably about five people here tops, who routinely offer me some kind of point for being here. Of which, you are one (lucky you)! Everyone else is just a friend.

My problem, is that I'd also class Kyrin as one of the people giving me a point for being here. So now I'm down to four. A couple more bans, or people leaving and I'll be left with no point for being here. Sad.

Also, if we'd applied the new rules and been so strict in upholding them several years ago, isn't it possible that people like and you and Gist may have been banned for much longer periods of time? Which may have detracted you from returning? So we wouldn't have you guys here now. Which would be super sad because you're both AWESOME contributors!

I'd hate to think that we missed out on the next Zenchi or Gisteron just because we lost patience with someone.

I also really just want as many 'points' to be here as possible, because everyone I like keeps leaving :laugh:

Thank you Brick...

In regards to my getting banned in the past, it didn't happen primarily for one reason and that's because I knew when it was time to leave. I've left for 6 months at a time, multiple times, even had my account deleted, willingly...

Again no one is talking about permanently banning Kyrin, but things have to change, because as you so eloquently put it, quite a few people have already left, recently as well as in the past as a result of her going unchecked, Knights included...