Jian (See)

Manu wrote:

Zenchi wrote: The solution, is going to be offensive to many who haven't put in the work, but wish to continue the illusion that they had. We're more concerned with rank badges than what we teach. The need for three badges recently is clear proof of this...

What is your vision for the Temple?

I used to have one, but I've learned to let go of quite a bit of it as none of it is likely to unfold, and I must accept that. I'm merely pointing out what needs to be addressed. And it has indeed been chewed to death before...

We lack accountability, on the highest levels. Ranks don't mean a damn thing unless everyone holding them has earned them, simply put. An idea was thrown around involving Knights taking the IP every so often, to catch up on what our students are doing now. The IP seven years ago to my knowledge was NOTHING like it us now, it didn't take squat to get to Knight and beyond.

What's worse, anyone who held license minister in the Seminary and made Council in years past were immediately bumped to ordained Bishop. How is that at all legitimate?

These problems still exist, while we're ever more focused on shoving more material in the IP for newer students, what we really need to be doing is focusing on everyone Knights and up. This Temple's problems are partially education based, but efforts need to start from the top down not the other way around. Either we hold everyone to a standard for each rank, or it's all poppy cock...

Zenchi wrote: What's worse, anyone who held license minister in the Seminary and made Council in years past were immediately bumped to ordained Bishop. How is that at all legitimate?

It may have made more sense at the time, I don't know, but we have already addressed this in any event. Our current Pastor holds the clerical rank of OCP (Deacon), and there are only two, possibly three, remaining Bishops who got there that way without doing the additional study we currently require for advancement. None of them exercise any meaningful activity in the Clergy, so accountability isn't much of an issue for me with regard to them within the Clergy.

I'm not saying this wasn't a legitimate complaint, just that it's not a current one.

Atticus wrote:

Zenchi wrote: What's worse, anyone who held license minister in the Seminary and made Council in years past were immediately bumped to ordained Bishop. How is that at all legitimate?

It may have made more sense at the time, I don't know, but we have already addressed this in any event. Our current Pastor holds the clerical rank of OCP (Deacon), and there are only two, possibly three, remaining Bishops who got there that way without doing the additional study we currently require for advancement. None of them exercise any meaningful activity in the Clergy, so accountability isn't much of an issue for me with regard to them within the Clergy.

I'm not saying this wasn't a legitimate complaint, just that it's not a current one.

The problem isn't concerning just the seminary, it was merely an example. You just got Knighted, so I'll allow you to catch up with the rest of us...

Things are changing. The temple will emerge from the other side, better or worse for our efforts. Let not the errors of the past steal our current opportunities. If we can focus on changes as they present themselves, and be patient, we can reap the new temple we have sowed. The focus can’t be a vendetta or even about ourselves. Our life is a life of service. Our focus must be on the good of the temple and those whom need our help here now.
We are restructuring and changing how we think, learn, and do work here. There are those that don’t want change. In time the same old arguments won’t work anymore. Fear of change will not stop us from becoming what we can become. From reaching our potential. It will only show the truth of the situation.
It won’t happen today. Or tomorrow. But I don’t plan on going anywhere and everyday we grow. We have some new Knights now that started some fantastic dialogue. We been asked some difficult questions and have found ourselves capable of coming together and genuinely seeking answers and solutions. Team work. Togetherness. Patience. Service. This is how we become better. This is how we repair ourselves here.
We don’t have agree on everything. We don’t have to like each other. But we shouldn’t let our friction hurt others. We have people who come here who are broken and are seeking a path to heal. The last thing they want to see is a temple in turmoil. A temple of Jedi pointing fingers, swearing at each other, and making ominous and generalized criticisms. Don’t get me wrong. We need to have the discussions. But we should speak them like Jedi. Some here have. But we are all capable of speaking civilly, with respect for each other. Void of emotional reactions and blame shifting. I’m not saying to sugar coat things or turn a blind eye. I’m saying empower, enlighten, teach, and edify. This is a temple of people, ran by people, for people. We all have issues and insecurities. Weaknesses and strengths. If we can work together, listen to each other, and put in the work where we can, we could do so much. I’d like to be a part of that. I hope you all do too.

Zenchi wrote:

Atticus wrote:

Zenchi wrote: What's worse, anyone who held license minister in the Seminary and made Council in years past were immediately bumped to ordained Bishop. How is that at all legitimate?

It may have made more sense at the time, I don't know, but we have already addressed this in any event. Our current Pastor holds the clerical rank of OCP (Deacon), and there are only two, possibly three, remaining Bishops who got there that way without doing the additional study we currently require for advancement. None of them exercise any meaningful activity in the Clergy, so accountability isn't much of an issue for me with regard to them within the Clergy.

I'm not saying this wasn't a legitimate complaint, just that it's not a current one.

The problem isn't concerning just the seminary, it was merely an example. You just got Knighted, so I'll allow you to catch up with the rest of us...

Right. And my point was that those of us who are trying to address these problems have actually been addressing these problems as they come within our ambit.

Atticus wrote:

Zenchi wrote:
The problem isn't concerning just the seminary, it was merely an example. You just got Knighted, so I'll allow you to catch up with the rest of us...

Right. And my point was that those of us who are trying to address these problems have actually been addressing these problems as they come within our ambit.

Addressing isn't enough. Time and time again they've been addressed, but with no delivery, no desire to change from above.

I know I, for one, no matter how far I progress, will be willing to do the IP as it changes so no one can say I've done less work than an Initiate to get where I am. I'd never say no to more training. But it seems some don't see the world as I do, the Path as I do.

These problems have been addressed as they pop up time and time again. But yet still Initiates have done more work than some of those holding the Master rank.

Arisaig wrote: These problems have been addressed as they pop up time and time again. But yet still Initiates have done more work than some of those holding the Master rank.

I don't disagree with your facts at all. What I disagree with is the subjective conclusion that things will not change. They already have, in small ways, though not soon enough for some. You don't need to tell me that, brother; I've watched too many of my best friends leave in the past three months, including my own damn TM. But what, is that supposed to make me fatalistic?

No. Here's the way this goes. Address the things I can help to change. Accept -- for now -- the things that I cannot change (yet). Focus, knowledge, wisdom to know the damn difference.

Either things will never change, in which case we are all wasting our all-too-brief time here pissing into the wind, or this place and what we do here are worth salvaging through incremental change. I don't think I'm the only one in group B.

I know this might sound strange, but I am encouraged by the fact that Initiates now have done more study than some Masters here. Sure, it puts the Master rank in a bad light sometimes, but it also means that every new generation of Knights will be better than the last. My goal as a TM has always been to produce a Knight better than myself. So long as those up top are not actively interfering in the progress of the Temple, we can survive having some people who are left over from a previous set of standards. It is when those people prevent the Temple from moving forward that we have problems, and those instances do happen here quite often. Despite this friction, we have made some leaps forward recently and the ideas continue to come from the newest Knights as well as some of the more seasoned vets. As JL has stated so well, it will take patience, compassion, cooperation, and a lot of hard work to make this place what we know it can be.

It's not being fatalistic, it's pointing out the fact some live by their principles, and some like to kick the can. Accountability has been THE problem since day one, and here we are, once again. I was asked by several what we could "do" in response to Streens recurring predicament, which is also connected to quite a few high ranking members stepping down. It's the word no one wants to talk about, so we just keep on kicking, lol...

What we can do is stop sweeping the issue under the rug and start addressing it. No one wants to touch it, and the few who do bring it up are responded with the same tired feedback, "anytime but now."

Am I asking to the TOTJO to pull full on stop to address this, of course not.
But... Lol, more energy is spent on attempts to kick the can than actually doing something about it. We'd rather more step down than actually attempt to shed light on the issue, because that in itself puts us in the spotlight...

When we don't hold the highest accountable, everything built will rest on quicksand...

Nobody said kick the can brother. We're saying do the work as we have the opportunity. Work together. Be the change. It's not too late.