Jian (See)

Today I read a page in a book that I hadn't touched in years, and it reminded me of where I originally got my ideas of how Jedi should be trained. It's a book called Everyday Tao by Deng Ming-Dao. Here's the excerpt:

Jian. To see. Without observation, learning is impossible.

When students wanted to learn the Tao, they sought out the guidance of wise elders. Learning was not formal. The ancients accepted any student they felt was sincere. Perhaps there was a simple conversation under a tree or a quiet invocation touching a rock. Then the younger one merely walked with the older one. The students wanted to see Tao. By pointing out animals and trees, leading the way through tiger-filled mountains and flower-covered valleys, fording icy rivers, and crossing sun-scorched deserts, the ancients showed the way of the world in its limitless variety.

What was so important about this method is that the ancients trusted their students to see. They trusted their students' perceptions. They didn't say, "Learn Tao from my words." They didn't say, "You are incapable of seeing Tao." They didn't say, "You can only gain Tao through elaborate rituals in temples." Instead, they simply let their students live and travel with them, and they knew that the students would see Tao in the wind and mountains, trees and rivers, animals and people. The real Tao wasn't inaccessible. The real Tao was the everyday Tao.

The idea that each of us can be directly spiritual is radical. Most religions are based not on teaching adherents to be directly spiritual, but in persuading them to trust in the intercession of ministers and priests. The problem with this approach is that we cannot gain access to spirituality except through the medium of a fallible human being. The example of the traveling students shows us otherwise: if we want to see Tao, we need only open our eyes and trust what we see.

With this quote, I am not criticizing TOTJO. It is, instead a suggestion to all Jedi sites that require a student to follow a set curriculum or "do as they're told" in order to advance in their hierarchy. To all of you trying to learn how to be a Jedi, the knowledge is out there and it's in you. The staff here won't like what I'm saying, but the fact of the matter is, you don't need them.

Find a mentor if you like, but be discerning of those who do more than simply provide an example to follow. It is SO much simpler than it has been made out to be. The Force is WITH YOU. You need only open your eyes to it.

Being a Jedi is just a frame of mind, a way of being. Many great Jedi here are not Knights.

I see of no other logical way to have advancement in a community other than a curriculum. Even in the cinematic universe there was training Jedi had to do in order to advance. Failure to pass usually resulted in the Jedi leaving, or not advancing in their Temple.

Yes, the Force is with us. That's what makes one a Jedi. But to advance one must, well, put in an effort, advance within the community. The way to regulate this is with training, lest we have people make it to Knight that aren't ready for the mantle.

Still, an interesting passage.

Everyone is a Master of something, the trick is growing the Master in yourself and seeing the Master in others. It comes from within. If you think TotJO can control that then I'd suggest consider nothing but oneself can achieve that.

So just be honest about where you focus really lays, and instead hone expectations to that instead of disjointed ideals. Crawling is required before walking, and walking is required before running, and running is required before flying. That process is bounded by (a minimum, base) of two attributes, the focal point of ones view temporally, and the impact of the environment on possible progress.

But yea I'd say that is a travel brochure perspective to lure folk in so the Master has someone to look after them in their twilight years!! Maybe that is a little cynical hehe. And it is idyllic to do nothing but 'be', of course, until you starve or get invaded... but of course that is when the dodgy master sends out the student to do their battle or beg for food in the rain - that is when to 'be' becomes 'be told what to do'. So yea, I'd go a step further and say if your seeking that inner tranquility then you should not seek to follow a Master or mentor but first come to resolve your own company with yourself first.

As in reality we should not rely on anyone IMO, for what happens when things are not idealistic is that circumstance dictates proportioning of resources for the most effective outcomes, because when things need to get done, hierarchy serves to manage it getting done.

The reason of why shouldn't be complicated to understand, but its application can certainly be very complicated - which is why structure serves to allow focus to be effective in producing outcomes. It all depends on what needs to be done that dictates the nature of getting it done.

So no need to blame folk for making things complicated if they are trying to do something complicated. If one doesn't want to do something then don't do it, but it's a bit of a reach to twist that around and infer people are misleading others into thinking a certain way is the only way - and I'm not sure the Temple has ever had that position. Actually, usually it's criticized by other Jedi groups for not being specific enough in letting a person call themselves a Jedi, so, it cannot win either way sometimes.

But yea back to the point, the focal point of ones view as it relates to time has a direct relationship to energy expenditure patterns, it is quite literally the ground for expression. The less energy needed for the near future means more available to experience the immediate present - enriching the experience either way, as positive spirituality or toxic habits; so there is also the impact of the past to be considered on ones capacity to focus. It is why many spiritual traditions have 'retreats' so that focus can be undiluted by the environment, and an idyllic view of nature serves the same method but at a slightly less disconnected form. Whenever I go camping I'm astounded at how foreign society looks and feels in comparison.

I know that I don't need to be here to be a great Jedi but I choose to. I was a Jedi before I joined TOTJO and all this place gave me was a community of people that believe what I believe (or close enough to it). I belong to the Jedi Church page on Facebook (along with a bunch of other people here) and appreciate what the people there have to say as well.

I choose to be here and have a teaching master but it doesn't in any way, shape, or form, make me less or more of a Jedi.

I'm not entirely sure everyone here understood what I was trying to say, and that's probably my fault.

Since someone mentioned the fictional Jedi, I thought I'd use them as an example. Compare, for now, the difference between Anakin Skywalker and Luke Skywalker. Anakin went through a curriculum. Luke learned from experience. Anakin had a master his whole life, telling him what to do and what not to do; he was a living weapon, one of the most powerful Jedi ever. Luke, on the other hand, had two teachers for very short periods of time; everything else he had to learn on his own. He became a kind and wise man.

So, aside from the fact that Anakin turned into Vader, they both had successful training, but in very different settings. Which is better? That's the question we have to ask ourselves when we start on the Jedi path. Many of you have never been on your own. All of the Jedi I knew in the first generation had to learn on their own, to teach themselves. I had a mentor for about a year or two. The other 18 I could only use whatever sources I could find. Taoism, Zen, martial arts, New Age thought, mythology... sometimes my teachers were people I had never met or even spoken to, and yet I learned more from them than I did my official mentor.

I won't lie, it's comforting to have a mentor. Someone to watch over you. But sometimes you have to set out on your own. Solitude can be comforting too.

Streen wrote: Today I read a page in a book that I hadn't touched in years, and it reminded me of where I originally got my ideas of how Jedi should be trained. It's a book called Everyday Tao by Deng Ming-Dao. Here's the excerpt:

Jian. To see. Without observation, learning is impossible.

When students wanted to learn the Tao, they sought out the guidance of wise elders. Learning was not formal. The ancients accepted any student they felt was sincere. Perhaps there was a simple conversation under a tree or a quiet invocation touching a rock. Then the younger one merely walked with the older one. The students wanted to see Tao. By pointing out animals and trees, leading the way through tiger-filled mountains and flower-covered valleys, fording icy rivers, and crossing sun-scorched deserts, the ancients showed the way of the world in its limitless variety.

What was so important about this method is that the ancients trusted their students to see. They trusted their students' perceptions. They didn't say, "Learn Tao from my words." They didn't say, "You are incapable of seeing Tao." They didn't say, "You can only gain Tao through elaborate rituals in temples." Instead, they simply let their students live and travel with them, and they knew that the students would see Tao in the wind and mountains, trees and rivers, animals and people. The real Tao wasn't inaccessible. The real Tao was the everyday Tao.

The idea that each of us can be directly spiritual is radical. Most religions are based not on teaching adherents to be directly spiritual, but in persuading them to trust in the intercession of ministers and priests. The problem with this approach is that we cannot gain access to spirituality except through the medium of a fallible human being. The example of the traveling students shows us otherwise: if we want to see Tao, we need only open our eyes and trust what we see.

With this quote, I am not criticizing TOTJO. It is, instead a suggestion to all Jedi sites that require a student to follow a set curriculum or "do as they're told" in order to advance in their hierarchy. To all of you trying to learn how to be a Jedi, the knowledge is out there and it's in you. The staff here won't like what I'm saying, but the fact of the matter is, you don't need them.

Find a mentor if you like, but be discerning of those who do more than simply provide an example to follow. It is SO much simpler than it has been made out to be. The Force is WITH YOU. You need only open your eyes to it.

The Tojo had said many times we are not the authority on Jedi ism and we are not in the business of not calling people Jedi if they claim to be Jedi. The opposite all are welcome and all any one can be a Jedi or a Jedi knight . We have many here who have not " followed our set " and that's fine too. This place is geared tword learning. If you like , our program is set up ceartain ways with ceartain criteria . It will take time and effort to receive a knights status and a clergy status and so forth here. That's all . No way do we say if you don't do like us your not a Jedi .
I was Jedi long before I joined the Temple. This temple is not the
Only place Jedi come to study. I can give you 7 difrent places a person can go to call them selfs many different titles by just signing up.
I would hope every one can grasp the simple
Jedi truth in life , we ARE not the
Same and the second , thats ok. Conflict comes when we begin to contest with one another . Here we are actively trying to minimize that.
We are fans here first and rightfully so but then this places lets you walk a bit further. The entire time we as a whole and I as a TM strive to " let you make your own Choice". I love it when my student disappear and turn to their life's and come back and disappear and come back. That's my goal for them as I come here and disappear and turn to my life and come back and disappear so that being said , may the force be with you as you seek it !

I think that sorta proves the point of having a curriculum.

Both had mentors (both being Obi-Wan and Yoda at some point at least).

Luke learned by experience, but so did Anakin. Isn't all learning by experience? Even book learning is an experience. And even Jedi used books (holocrons, but same difference).

Both Luke and Anakin had mentors. So yes I do agree that we shouldn't be seeking teachers, but mentors, masters in their own right that can help you achieve your goals. Like how Snipers learn. The more experienced sniper is never the one pulling the trigger, but spotting targets for the less experienced, and through that mentor-ship, that learning process, that they both grow.

But in the end, we all need someone. Even Luke, even when he was on his own, was chasing down books written by old masters, holocrons, and learning from the ghosts of Yoda and Obi-Wan (and perhaps others). We cannot learn from nothing. Even if we pick up a book and learn something from that, its learning from someone else.

Yes, the knowledge is out there. The lessons I am learning as an apprentice were always there. But perhaps I would never have found them without my master's help, and thus would not be achieving the goals I've been aiming for this whole time.

Having a mentor is great because it helps build a foundation that the apprentice can then expand on their own. Even Rey, in the new films looks for a mentor because she knows that even though she can handle the saber, she needs the proper training.

It's the same in real life too. Let's say you get a new job that you already know how to do moderately, right? Well, the first thing that the company does is pair you up with someone so that they can train you properly in the way that THAT particular company does things. Sure, you know how it works but now you are learning another way and it may benefit you in the future.

Solitude is great and you can learn on your own, but having someone to jump start you doesn't hurt either.

That's a really cool passage Streen. Thank you for sharing it.

One thing I noticed though, as it pertains to learning from a master VS learning through self experience, is that in the passage it says that the students watched their master. They lived with them. They didn't just walk through a forrest alone, they followed in someone's footsteps. They learned by example, someone else's example.

If we want to talk fictional Jedi that actually seems much more like how a Jedi apprenticeship worked. The Master did stuff, the Padawan followed, observed, and learned. The Master would offer insight as they went, but much of the learning at that stage was observation and experience.

I have read The Book of Five Rings maybe half a dozen times and in it Musashi discusses how he learned on his own but he'd never met anyone else who could learn without at least some guidance. He recommended that all students of any discipline find a teacher.

The trick is finding a teacher who trusts you to observe and really learn rather than simply telling you to memorize a list of "doctrine." That's what I felt the passage was really saying.

Out of Curiosity whey does it have to be one or the other ? I will step out on a limb here and say balance is needed often , especially here . Good luck and happy seeking friends , no one can tell you your balance and no one should in my opinion. May the force be with y'all as we all seek our own balances !