Jian (See)

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6 years 4 months ago #305139 by Tellahane
Replied by Tellahane on topic Jian (See)

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Tellahane wrote: .
Kyrin: Yes streen is once again travelling through the same history in an another attempt to find a home to teach just as he has done before, and perhaps will attempt again a few more times before he learns, but if that what it takes for him to figure things out and grow should we not at least be patient and allow it to happen? Everyone here is different, everyone here has different ways of learning, came up from different backgrounds, and has different paths they need to take. This is streen's, just as you have your own. We haven't banned you, not going to likely ban streen, unless he really breaks the rules and warrants it.


First off you are correct, my earlier statement on banning was an incomplete thought. I didn't mean to ban him for the sake of banning. What I was referring to was his earlier incident with Jestor when an extreme example of this behaviour got him banned. Sorry for not better conveying that.

As for the rest, yes you are correct, his journey and mine have been very similar in some regards. But in my time here I have gone though the Initiates training and the apprenticeship. And yes, I have come out the other side without being granted the title of Knight. Its ok though, I have realized something though this process. I don't have the passive temperance nor submissive nature to be a Knight here at this temple. But I know that because of the training I have received and the interaction I maintain here. Those things have taught me that and it has allowed me to move on and forge my own path forward.

The difference between my experience and Streens is that he refuses to go through this process. Instead he would rather continue to stand and bang at the door and demand things he does not deserve nor has earned just because of who he is. It is an attitude of self entitlement due to his longevity in the community but the ironic thing is that it is also in direct conflict to his and rellam fulcrums all out war on the Jedi community which they consider as being corrupt and off course.

Its pretty obvious that Streen is lost and confused and lacking direction or connection in his life. Until he finds that he will never be an effective student or a teacher and this temples continued overindulgent coddling of his antics is not helping that. He needs more than kind words, he needs help. And I don't mean medical help but help as in a hand up. Has any member of the clergy ever contacted him and started a relationship to maybe try and get him on the correct course. It seems a perfect example of what the clergy is supposed to be doing?


I'm not sure if they have or not, but even if they have, I'm pretty sure they won't tell people about it as any conversations with clergy are confidential. As far as the coddling goes, I don't see much coddling going on if any, at least from my perspective. He comes, he tries, he fails, there's a lesson in that in itself. Perhaps he needs to do that x number of times before he learns the lesson. He's not succeeded at doing anything around here otherwise. If you are referring to disruption or something else related to the other members here at the temple, its just as much a lesson and experience for them as it is for anyone else. Situations and experiences happen, how you act on them isn't any different then how you deal with any scenario you will be faced with tomorrow.

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6 years 4 months ago - 6 years 4 months ago #305141 by
Replied by on topic Jian (See)

Tellahane wrote: I'm not sure if they have or not, but even if they have, I'm pretty sure they won't tell people about it as any conversations with clergy are confidential. As far as the coddling goes, I don't see much coddling going on if any, at least from my perspective. He comes, he tries, he fails, there's a lesson in that in itself. Perhaps he needs to do that x number of times before he learns the lesson. He's not succeeded at doing anything around here otherwise. If you are referring to disruption or something else related to the other members here at the temple, its just as much a lesson and experience for them as it is for anyone else. Situations and experiences happen, how you act on them isn't any different then how you deal with any scenario you will be faced with tomorrow.


Yes well I would not expect them to, that was not my point. My point was that since he and I have walked similar rocky paths here, albeit with different outcomes, I have some insight into the ineffectiveness of the clergy here. I have even been addressed many times in open discussion by clergy telling me they had failed in that regard and wanted to correct things and yet still failed to do so except in one case where a very condescending knight once Pmed me and called me a "cheeky fellow". If my experience is anywhere typical I'm sure streen has not been contacted.

And when I say contacted I don't mean just a PM telling him they are there for him if he wants to talk. That sort of ineffective lip service is just as meaningless as the coddling comments in this thread. I mean telling him they would like to setup a Skype or something and discuss things, dig into the reasons why he fails here and what he really wants. Develop a plan with him to make him sucessful so he can move forward here if he so chooses. Of course this is contingent on his cooperation but if he is willing I see this as a proper role for clergy. This sort of intimate interaction focused on his obviously conflicted Jedi spirituality. It would be designed to break this cycle of meltdown followed by the same old conversations over and over again.
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6 years 4 months ago #305142 by Tellahane
Replied by Tellahane on topic Jian (See)

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Tellahane wrote: I'm not sure if they have or not, but even if they have, I'm pretty sure they won't tell people about it as any conversations with clergy are confidential. As far as the coddling goes, I don't see much coddling going on if any, at least from my perspective. He comes, he tries, he fails, there's a lesson in that in itself. Perhaps he needs to do that x number of times before he learns the lesson. He's not succeeded at doing anything around here otherwise. If you are referring to disruption or something else related to the other members here at the temple, its just as much a lesson and experience for them as it is for anyone else. Situations and experiences happen, how you act on them isn't any different then how you deal with any scenario you will be faced with tomorrow.


Yes well I would not expect them to, that was not my point. My point was that since he and I have walked similar rocky paths here, albeit with different outcomes, I have some insight into the ineffectiveness of the clergy here. I have even been addressed many times in open discussion by clergy telling me they had failed in that regard and wanted to correct things and yet still failed to do so except in one case where a very condescending knight once Pmed me and called me a "cheeky fellow". If my experience is anywhere typical I'm sure streen has not been contacted.

And when I say contacted I don't mean just a PM telling him they are there for him if he wants to talk. That sort of ineffective lip service is just as meaningless as the coddling comments in this thread. I mean telling him they would like to setup a Skype or something and discuss things, dig into the reasons why he fails here and what he really wants. Develop a plan with him to make him sucessful so he can move forward here if he so chooses. Of course this is contingent on his cooperation but if he is willing I see this as a proper role for clergy. This sort of intimate interaction focused on his obviously conflicted Jedi spirituality. It would be designed to break this cycle of meltdown followed by the same old conversations over and over again.


This sounds less and less related to this thread and streen and more and more related to how you feel clergy should function. Of which I know you have had some talks but perhaps continued talks with the clergy about it.

I will ask this, being as you seem to be so passionate about how it should operate, why haven't you pursued joining the clergy yourself?

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6 years 4 months ago #305163 by
Replied by on topic Jian (See)

Tellahane wrote: This sounds less and less related to this thread and streen and more and more related to how you feel clergy should function. Of which I know you have had some talks but perhaps continued talks with the clergy about it.

I will ask this, being as you seem to be so passionate about how it should operate, why haven't you pursued joining the clergy yourself?


I think its directly related to this thread because of the way the clergy present themselves in their function here. Streen is the classic example of someone in spiritual crisis. However the few clergy that did post in this thread spent more time chastising me for my comments or just telling him "Good luck" than ever really addressing his issues. Once again we only see what happens in the public arena but my experience is that its a good bet the same thing happens privately as well. (My personal experience)

As to your question, I did actually consider joining the clergy at one time. I even discussed it with V. But in the end I realized I don't agree with the philosophical positions of this place. As a temple, this place is one of talk but no action, not any sort of organized group that I would really consider a temple but just a collection of individuals all doing their own thing. That's why the clergy is as ineffective as the rest of this temple. People like Streen just slip through the cracks again and again.

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6 years 4 months ago #305164 by Tellahane
Replied by Tellahane on topic Jian (See)

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Tellahane wrote: This sounds less and less related to this thread and streen and more and more related to how you feel clergy should function. Of which I know you have had some talks but perhaps continued talks with the clergy about it.

I will ask this, being as you seem to be so passionate about how it should operate, why haven't you pursued joining the clergy yourself?


I think its directly related to this thread because of the way the clergy present themselves in their function here. Streen is the classic example of someone in spiritual crisis. However the few clergy that did post in this thread spent more time chastising me for my comments or just telling him "Good luck" than ever really addressing his issues. Once again we only see what happens in the public arena but my experience is that its a good bet the same thing happens privately as well. (My personal experience)

As to your question, I did actually consider joining the clergy at one time. I even discussed it with V. But in the end I realized I don't agree with the philosophical positions of this place. As a temple, this place is one of talk but no action, not any sort of organized group that I would really consider a temple but just a collection of individuals all doing their own thing. That's why the clergy is as ineffective as the rest of this temple. People like Streen just slip through the cracks again and again.


So just to make sure I understand your point correctly, you thought about joining the clergy but you didn't agree with some or all or any given portion of the philosophical positions they take. So they have a view of how things run, but they don't align with yours...understandable. Then point two is you believe the temple, but most specifically the clergy is all talk but no action and that as a result they are ineffective......

So if I look at this objectively, you had...have...an opportunity to join the clergy, follow your own philosophical views or push for change by actually participating, but just like what you claim the clergy do, chose to do your own individual thing, which is what you blame the majority of the temple for doing, and then instead of being constructive and pushing for change, chose to just complain about it instead? All of which is based purely on the assumption that nothing was done privately, to which despite your own personal experiences you ultimately actually do not know whether it has or hasn't but are acting on that lack of information...

Did I get any part of that wrong?

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6 years 4 months ago #305168 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic Jian (See)

Tellahane wrote: ... but just like what you claim the clergy do, chose to do your own individual thing, which is what you blame the majority of the temple for doing, and then instead of being constructive and pushing for change, chose to just complain about it instead?


The blame game is pointless. It could easily be said of any of us that we are complaining as well.

Feedback is feedback, however it comes. And from whomever it comes from.

Getting back to the Clergy topic, as in life, no one can force help down your throat against your will. You have to seek it. That is the reason why Clergy can only make themselves available. Interventions are ineffective, online.

The pessimist complains about the wind;
The optimist expects it to change;
The realist adjusts the sails.
- William Arthur Ward

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6 years 4 months ago - 6 years 4 months ago #305169 by Zenchi
Replied by Zenchi on topic Jian (See)

Manu wrote:

Tellahane wrote: ... but just like what you claim the clergy do, chose to do your own individual thing, which is what you blame the majority of the temple for doing, and then instead of being constructive and pushing for change, chose to just complain about it instead?


The blame game is pointless. It could easily be said of any of us that we are complaining as well.

Feedback is feedback, however it comes. And from whomever it comes from.

Getting back to the Clergy topic, as in life, no one can force help down your throat against your will. You have to seek it. That is the reason why Clergy can only make themselves available. Interventions are ineffective, online.


Perhaps, if those involved are inexperienced at providing guidance, and the TOTJO is filled with its share of "teachers" that's for certain. The problem is the majority of people here either don't give a fuck about truly assisting others, or are inadequate in their attempts because they are heavily inexperienced, and tend to enable and coddle, which also is a a common trait amongst the membership here...

Intervention isn't supposed to be a pleasant experience....

My Word is my Honor, and my Honor is my Life ~ Sturm Brightblade
Passion, yet Serenity
Knighted Apprentice Arisaig
TM- RyuJin
Last edit: 6 years 4 months ago by Zenchi. Reason: Usual stuff n things...
The following user(s) said Thank You: Manu

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6 years 4 months ago #305170 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic Jian (See)

Zenchi wrote: Perhaps, if those involved are inexperienced at providing guidance, and the TOTJO is filled with its share of "teachers" that's for certain. The problem is the majority of people here either don't give a fuck about truly assisting others, or are inadequate in their attempts because they are heavily inexperienced, and tend to enable and coddle, which also is a a common trait amongst the membership here...

Intervention isn't supposed to be a pleasant experience....


A fair point. I don't argue the first one, due to inexperience with Clergy. On the second point, yes, intervention is not pleasant, but offline it's hard to walk out. Online it is too easy. How do you suggest we go about it?

The pessimist complains about the wind;
The optimist expects it to change;
The realist adjusts the sails.
- William Arthur Ward

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6 years 4 months ago - 6 years 4 months ago #305171 by
Replied by on topic Jian (See)

Tellahane wrote: So just to make sure I understand your point correctly, you thought about joining the clergy but you didn't agree with some or all or any given portion of the philosophical positions they take. So they have a view of how things run, but they don't align with yours...understandable. Then point two is you believe the temple, but most specifically the clergy is all talk but no action and that as a result they are ineffective......

So if I look at this objectively, you had...have...an opportunity to join the clergy, follow your own philosophical views or push for change by actually participating, but just like what you claim the clergy do, chose to do your own individual thing, which is what you blame the majority of the temple for doing, and then instead of being constructive and pushing for change, chose to just complain about it instead? All of which is based purely on the assumption that nothing was done privately, to which despite your own personal experiences you ultimately actually do not know whether it has or hasn't but are acting on that lack of information...

Did I get any part of that wrong?


No they don't have a view, they present a view but they don't follow through with those claims. And my focus is not the clergy, its the entire function of this "temple" as a cohesive group. It is ineffective and lacks leadership. As for joining the clergy and continuing to follow my own philosophical views, why would I want to do that when I can also follow my philosophy without the bullcrap of joining a dysfunctional group? And as for pushing for change, what a joke, Ive seen the results of pushing for change around here. It results only in half the Knights corp being banned, half the council resigning, and anyone that speaks out against the ruling oligarchy being pushed out, upon which they go start their own web sites.

No thanks, The difference between me and the groups that stand here is that I'm not self deluding myself into believing and presenting myself as something I'm not. I am an individual that chooses to function here as a component of this place, just like everybody else. The difference is that I admit that and I embrace that. I have no interest in changing that or this place. Its wasted effort, but occasionally I get to point out some of the hypocrisy when things like this arise.
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6 years 4 months ago #305172 by
Replied by on topic Jian (See)
One thing about the clergy is that we are a handful in a temple that grows everyday. We aren't super heros. Just folks like you. We do our best with the time we have. You're right, it's not enough. We spend our time talking with others, helping with studies, being a place to vent. I often wonder if I make a difference at all.
There isn't a blanket approach to help them all. Everyone is unique with unique struggles. Some genuinely want help. Some want to be coddled and told they are absolutely right. Each person is a different case.
I wasn't going to reply but I see an opportunity here. I invite you all to join us. See the other side of the fence. Help us become more effective. There is plenty of work here. We are restructuring to be more effective and I think we have plenty of empathetic Jedi that could help us get there.
I don't defend our inadequacy. I only hope we can fix them together.

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