Jian (See)

The consequence for Streen's repeated approach is repeated failure. Nothing therein requires moderation, his argument fails on its own (due to delivery, he could work wonders with his experiences if he didn't insist on restating the same over and over again).

What irritates you, Kyrin? Is it that moderating is slanted here? Whenever faced with an obstacle, does complaining usually work? Maybe your delivery could use some adjustment too. God knows you've got the raw energy for productive change. In this I see a similarity between Aaron and yourself. Delivery.

I'm not going to take sides on this specific incident. I will say that its a difficult line to walk between giving honest feedback that people ought to hear and being insulting beyond what is appropriate. Believe it or not, "youre being a douche" is often a perfectly valid form of feedback. Its certainly better than the empty sound of crickets chirping. I have wondered many times how much more quickly I would have matured in my own communication styles if more people had simply informed me of the moments when I was being a douche.

But of course, we do also have to learn how to give unpleasant feedback in an acceptable aka respecting way. I'm not sure exactly where the line is, all I'm saying is that there are good ideas on both sides of it.

I agree OB1. We can be straight forward and honest without tearing each other down. But when it comes down to it this is a church and a place of learning. Abusive behavior has no place here. I don't disagree much with Kyrins view. But her delivery is the problem.

I redacted seven words in the deleted post with the confidential tag, and I believe it's acceptable now without changing the meaning of the post. If Kyrin feels it changes things too much I can make further amendments as requested. Based on that, I've un-deleted it. If the moderators feel there are still issues please get with me. As I said, I believe it's acceptable now but others might be seeing something I'm not.

Streen, I've seen you come in multiple times and talk about how you want to make a change, then you do the same old **** that you did before. All you really want it seems, is control, and you don't want to do the work required here. It doesn't matter what you have done in other communities, this one has guidelines on what you have to do to advance. Why should you come in and just have a high rank handed to you, when others have to work and study to obtain the same goal. Quite frankly, seeing how you react to people, if I were looking for a teacher, you would be one of the last people I'd ever choose, because you seem to have this my way or the highway mentality. Perhaps you need to work more on your own self before you try to pass on any "wisdom" to others.

Br. John wrote: I redacted seven words in the deleted post with the confidential tag, and I believe it's acceptable now without changing the meaning of the post. If Kyrin feels it changes things too much I can make further amendments as requested. Based on that, I've un-deleted it. If the moderators feel there are still issues please get with me. As I said, I believe it's acceptable now but others might be seeing something I'm not.

Thank you Br John. Your changes are acceptable to me. I appreciate your fair contribution.

I've only been a knight for a week or two, and might already be a little rusty, but I'm pretty sure no matter what teaching program/site you go to about Jediism at some point they all teach you about patience, responsibility, and perseverance/self-discipline as points at some point or another.

Streen: I know your eager to teach, and I know you feel that your experience is entitled, but there is still a process here with the IP and apprenticeship. There are some here who have even learned the value of repeating those steps to compare how the have changes from when they started to where they are now to help them grow even further. If your not willing to go through these steps that you will be having others' go through then how is that being an example? As far as something else I saw in one of your posts, the most of the population is here at TOTJO. There's a reason for that, we have a system that is working for these people, not to say that there aren't other education programs working elsewhere because there are, but the people here are here for a reason. The program, however outdated some people claim it is, is working. If you want to be able to teach it, you have to understand it.

Kyrin: Yes streen is once again travelling through the same history in an another attempt to find a home to teach just as he has done before, and perhaps will attempt again a few more times before he learns, but if that what it takes for him to figure things out and grow should we not at least be patient and allow it to happen? Everyone here is different, everyone here has different ways of learning, came up from different backgrounds, and has different paths they need to take. This is streen's, just as you have your own. We haven't banned you, not going to likely ban streen, unless he really breaks the rules and warrants it.

To everyone else: Patience, comes from understanding, which comes from an open mind to different perspectives other then your own, which comes from the willingness to listen, which comes from patience...insert paradox here.

Streen part two: the moment you got super defensive about your own history and experience, and lashed out, is the moment you showed you are not ready for teaching, its the moment you showed your are not a master of your self, the craft, or the belief. You can memorize it all but if you can't actually follow it and be it, then your are not being the example to follow. If you did go through the IP and all that and work your way up you would not only have considerably more respect but you might give yourself the chance to re-find yourself and your path again. Or perhaps you may choose to do this elsewhere, either way I think you need to revisit the teachings and go back to the basics first. That's just my opinion though.

Tellahane wrote: .
Kyrin: Yes streen is once again travelling through the same history in an another attempt to find a home to teach just as he has done before, and perhaps will attempt again a few more times before he learns, but if that what it takes for him to figure things out and grow should we not at least be patient and allow it to happen? Everyone here is different, everyone here has different ways of learning, came up from different backgrounds, and has different paths they need to take. This is streen's, just as you have your own. We haven't banned you, not going to likely ban streen, unless he really breaks the rules and warrants it.

First off you are correct, my earlier statement on banning was an incomplete thought. I didn't mean to ban him for the sake of banning. What I was referring to was his earlier incident with Jestor when an extreme example of this behaviour got him banned. Sorry for not better conveying that.

As for the rest, yes you are correct, his journey and mine have been very similar in some regards. But in my time here I have gone though the Initiates training and the apprenticeship. And yes, I have come out the other side without being granted the title of Knight. Its ok though, I have realized something though this process. I don't have the passive temperance nor submissive nature to be a Knight here at this temple. But I know that because of the training I have received and the interaction I maintain here. Those things have taught me that and it has allowed me to move on and forge my own path forward.

The difference between my experience and Streens is that he refuses to go through this process. Instead he would rather continue to stand and bang at the door and demand things he does not deserve nor has earned just because of who he is. It is an attitude of self entitlement due to his longevity in the community but the ironic thing is that it is also in direct conflict to his and rellam fulcrums all out war on the Jedi community which they consider as being corrupt and off course.

Its pretty obvious that Streen is lost and confused and lacking direction or connection in his life. Until he finds that he will never be an effective student or a teacher and this temples continued overindulgent coddling of his antics is not helping that. He needs more than kind words, he needs help. And I don't mean medical help but help as in a hand up. Has any member of the clergy ever contacted him and started a relationship to maybe try and get him on the correct course. It seems a perfect example of what the clergy is supposed to be doing?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: As for the rest, yes you are correct, his journey and mine have been very similar in some regards. But in my time here I have gone though the Initiates training and the apprenticeship. And yes, I have come out the other side without being granted the title of Knight. Its ok though, I have realized something though this process. I don't have the passive temperance nor submissive nature to be a Knight here at this temple.

It won't mean a lot from this fellow Apprentice, but the "knight", as in chess, is the game changer. Patience helps, yes, but it should not be held up as an idol above and beyond other virtues, such as the fearlessness and honesty (yup, those are maxims too) that you clearly have in surplus. You are a Knight to me, Kyrin. Do not let my previous remarks make you think otherwise.

Cleaned up bit from Wikipedia on Jian;

Jian (儉; jiǎn) literally: "frugality, moderation, economy, restraint, be sparing", is a practice that the Tao Te Ching believes is "organically connected" with the Taoist metaphor pu (樸 "uncarved wood; simplicity"), and "stands for the economy of nature that does not waste anything. When applied to the moral life it stands for the simplicity of desire."

To me it sort of relates to 'efficiency' but in the context of that important focus of effort. So that it sits in the middle of the other 2 elements of the sānbǎo being compassion and humility as the basis for that Tao. It's funny that refined action leads to the concept of 'non-doing' but I think Chapter 67 does address that, in that isn't not doing but effortless, smooth and accurate doing without wasted efforts which allows space to grow more purely.