The Problems with TotJO

The last sentence of your first paragraph makes it seem as though I need help. I do not. Furthermore, I have found that most "help" that has been extended to me from members here is almost entirely unhelpful.

You’ve thrown me for a loop with this statement Anison :laugh:

In your OP, you said you had asked a bunch of questions and the answers you received were, and I’m quoting you here, ‘unhelpful (and often offensive)’. This suggests you were hoping for answers you deemed to be ‘helpful’, all I did was state my belief that most members were trying to give you those answers….

I already addressed similar statements made by a previous post. Basically, you are saying "you don't have to do those things". I understand that. Like I said before, it is a terrifically good thing because I think that the IP and the "study" the FAQ talks about is not enough to actually validate someone as a higher rank.

Again, I think you’re misunderstanding both TotJO and our Ranking system. As I said previously, the Ranks only refer to how much of TotJO’s ‘course’ one has completed. It has extremely little (if anything) to do with ‘how much of a Jedi someone is’.

Yet you continually seem to suggest that ‘Higher Rank = More-Jedi-Like’, despite being continually told that this not the case. Because that is not what the Ranks represent. This is best shown in your response to Avalonslight:

This is the fundamental problem with TotJO. That's like saying a guest in the catholic church is just as much a Catholic Christian as the Pope. Totally absurd.

You’re comparing the leader of the Catholic Church to a guest in the church, which is not the same as comparing a Knight in this Temple to a guest in this Temple. The Pope is a clerical position, and so should be compared to our clerical positions. Our Clergy are, after all the ones that ‘deal specifically with the spiritual well-being of the Temple’.

Our Clergy would therefore, I suppose, be comparable, and I ,suppose, there could be an argument for members of our clergy being ‘more-Jedi-like’ than our guests.

Though I would still argue that a guest in the Catholic Church could easily embody the ethos and values of Catholicism just as well as the Pope does, and the same goes for the ethos and values of Jediism.

Think of the ranks as being more 'academic' for example? Just because someone has a degree it doesn't make them more of a person, just more knowledgeable in a given topic. Or perhaps the most obvious and well known ranking structure, the military for example: does being an officer make someone more of a soldier than a squaddie is? Of course not, that would be 'totally absurd'

Overall a respectful and well-meaning post. Thank you, Brick.

Well, one does one’s best :laugh:

- I would also like for those reading to go look at the users that "said thank you" to tzb's post (dated April 24, 2017, 15:00). Notice their ranks. I hope that helps you understand exactly what I am up against. It is why I have made it my view that something new is needed. The foundation of this Order is what I am questioning and it is likely the truth that changing any of that foundation would only destroy the whole thing. I do not desire to do that, but I do desire things that I believe this Orders foundation will not allow for and likely would not be adaptable to.

So far: Members, Novices, Apprentices, Knights and Senior Knights.

What exactly am I supposed to deduce from this, sorry? That my comments have a broad scope of consensus? :lol:

I'm fairly new here so I have much to learn.

However, One thing I can say is we need to humble ourselves and seek understanding. It is easy to see how we think things should be and forget to ask the question "Why are things the way they are?" Seeking understanding can very much clear up our concerns and issues. At the very least it gives more clarity and direction to facilitate change.

When I initially looked at the IP program I was shocked with how little of an actual focus was on Jedi and how to apply there inspiration and ideals to our lives. It is only when I started going though the lessons I could understand what TotJO is trying to achieve with the training. The training is very much about the opening up of our minds and discovering ourselves. Which in actuality is a very Jedi thing. You can't truly help others if you don't know yourself. Along with that unless you are willing to open your mind to new ideas and ways of thinking unneeded conflict will arise from misunderstandings or hardheadedness.

Jedi are very much diplomats along with being warriors. There confidence in themselves and the force rose from the discipline and patience they utilized to better understand who they were and how they related to the world around them. TotJO is very much trying to achieve this through their training. They are just maybe going about it in a different way. I didn't understand this until I decided to give the training a try and serious thought.

There is value in this place. It is full of diversity and a community of individuals willing to speak their mind. From what I can tell people here are striving to live there lives to the best they can and are willing to change as needed to be come better. That's a hallmark of a true Jedi in my eyes. Jedi isn't just a name for those who truly live the Jedi way it is who they are through and through in action, thought, and deeds.

It's interesting to consider that the things we find most annoying, frustrating and hurtful can reveal our greatest fears in the clearest light.

For those who feel that TOTJO is too hierarchical - it probably means that you fear hierarchy. For those that feel that TOTJO encompasses too diverse a range of perspectives - it probably means that you fear diversity. For those who feel that the Jedi here aren't committed enough - it probably means that you fear becoming uncommitted yourself. For those who feel that they don't have their voice heard at TOTJO - it probably means you fear remaining unheard. We could go on ad infinitum . . . but hopefully you get the picture . . .

Patience, Acceptance and Empathy are among our greatest 'weapons' - but we can't teach these skills, as you might teach someone French. It is up to each person to develop their abilities with the support, wisdom, experience and guidance available within this diverse community - nobody else can do this work for us - the responsibility is ours alone.

The Temple is nothing more than it's members - it does not exist without them. For those who wish to change the Temple, what you're really wishing is to change the people. This can be done - people are always changing - but (particularly in a voluntary order) it doesn't work by barking orders from the top, down. Directed change happens from the bottom, up, and happens one person at a time - organically. The fervent wish to 'change the Temple' is really a desperate wish to change the people, and an unsophisticated way of avoiding the change that you need to encourage in yourself.

We are here for anyone who comes through our doors, whether they prefer to watch from the side, to be out and about doing their thing, or pontificating from a soapbox in the forum

Loudzoo wrote: It's interesting to consider that the things we find most annoying, frustrating and hurtful can reveal our greatest fears in the clearest light.

For those who feel that TOTJO is too hierarchical - it probably means that you fear hierarchy. For those that feel that TOTJO encompasses too diverse a range of perspectives - it probably means that you fear diversity. For those who feel that the Jedi here aren't committed enough - it probably means that you fear becoming uncommitted yourself. For those who feel that they don't have their voice heard at TOTJO - it probably means you fear remaining unheard. We could go on ad infinitum . . . but hopefully you get the picture . . .

Probably? Let's be mindful how we group and generalize people, not everyone falls within such "clearly defined" bounderies...

Anison wrote: I am concerned about this Order. Here are the problems I see, why I think they are problems, and what I am going to do about them.
Finding the Problems
- When I first came here in January I was just excited to see others who thought of Jediism and the force in a serious way. I saw a place to extend my understanding and interact with other members. The potential was awe inspiring.
- Unfortunately, the "interaction" became provocation when I arose some questions and issues that truly seemed to be suppressed here.
- Some examples include: why/how does a website with a forum and some Admin. have any say in who is a true Jedi and who isn't? Why should time spent watching and reading some good material be the way to make a Jedi? Does a rank, a banner, on this website mean anything except that one has spent a lot of time grinding through some palpable time management and critical thinking skills? Why should I prove my understanding of Jediism and the force through this IP? (keep in mind I am halfway through lesson one of the IP, also keep in mind that alone has taken over 6 hours of my life)
- I answered my own questions after being told numerous unhelpful (and often offensive) things by most and a few constructive criticisms of others: This is the best way there is currently. This lead to a thought that I'm sure many ran into before and many will run into again. Why is this the best way we have? What could be a better way? The answer was obvious to me as it is/was to many. We need to make this more tangible, it needs to migrate from mostly online to mostly offline and be in the real world. But what would be needed to do that?

The Temple Problem
- Of course, I went and read everything I could find about a Temple on this website first. A striking but expected truth was found. It was often brought up by those in the lower ranks and quickly shot down by those in the upper ranks as "impossible". To be clear, they hardly ever used that word but man if they didn't find every synonym and phrase that meant the exact same thing. Being myself, I was not the least bit deterred. In fact, I turned the anger at what I was seeing into pure energy and went to one of the more popular threads concerning the matter and voiced my opinion. Boy did those floodgates open, and not even in a slightly different way.
- I was told many things. I think of the ten's of posts that followed my statements maybe two of them were on my side in the matter. The rest had every reason I had read before as to why it hadn't and wouldn't happen. And yes I understand that them being common reasons means that they are the better ones. But if those are the better ones they aren't particularly convincing or good anyways. Which is why I did not and will not fold on my opinion of the matter. It is possible. It will happen one day. I believe it, and no one's "logical" reasoning will prove myself or any of the others that believe as I do wrong. You'll see one day. When it's standing before you.
- I learned one thing that I should have seen but did not see until a few members pointed it out to me. The unfortunate truth of this order is written on every page of it. Most of the members here like it because of the fact that it is mostly online. It being online is helpful with regards to accessibility but beyond that, the attraction here is the easiness of it all. "Sign up to be a Jedi! Fill out a form and talk about the force!", these are the words of a senior member in a private message to me. However, I hold that opinion now myself. He used a phrase for it, it did and still will offend those that it describes.

The Keyboard Jedi Problem
- The majority of the members of this website are here because the only thing it requires is the ability to think and type. It does not require you show any actual action or dedication. Yes, typing is an action. The time it takes requires some dedication.
- Here's the list of the "dedication": the IP takes a while to complete, after the IP you must find and get a "master", you must go through more steps as an apprentice, then the "master" decides if you deserve the title of "Jedi", s/he does and you're a "Jedi", now you go about becoming a "master", and it goes on. To further prove my point, this can be done at any pace (accessibility or easiness?). I have seen some who have been going through it for years. How is that "dedication"?
- But I get it, you must do some things. But let me ask those that have completed all of it and are a member of the upper ranks, do you really feel like a Jedi? The natural reaction is "yes of course", but I'm asking you to really think about it. Do you really? Have you really earned that title? If you do feel like a Jedi then I'd put all my bets on that you feel that way for reasons other than what you have accomplished on this website.
- I understand that some of the members here actually do go out and do things in the real world as a Jedi. But we all know the truth is that most of us haven't. Those that have inhabit less than 10% of the membership easily, maybe less than 5%.
- The truth is simple and painful I'm sure to those that have spent much time on here: Once you log out, you are no longer a "master", a "Jedi", an "apprentice"... the badge stays on the website and so does the rank. Sure you are more educated. You have earned the knowledge and understanding and intellect that got you your rank here. But you know the truth is that is all you have once you log out. Anything else is from experiences you have had offline. You know that's the truth. Search yourself.

What do I want?
- I am sorry to those that wish it to be true but it takes more to make a Jedi than what is required here. You know it, no one has to tell you that. You just know it. How do I know that you know? It's the very reason some of you have actually gone out and done things as a Jedi in the world. Those that have done that inspire me to do the same and keeps my hope alive that one day there will be a true Jedi Order. I thank you all.
*- Here's a test for those that do not see or understand my problem: Look over at the "Latest Posts". What do you see? Right now I see posts about what we are listening to, workout routines, some journals, favorite quotes from the movies, character analysis from the movies, thoughts on canon, and so on. You see? They aren't talking about making this into something more. They don't care that it's just a website. I do. I want more. I want to talk about those things in person. I want to see you all in a Temple with your robes on. I want to see you in the streets with robes on, teaching and telling them of possibly the best spirituality that the world will ever see. I want more. I want reality for the Jedi Order.

What will I do?
- For the reasons I have stated above, I have decided that I will be pursuing my dreams outside of this website. Unless such a time comes that this website is at the forefront of making Jediism a reality, not just a discussion.
- I will continue to probe these issues on this website. I will not just let it go. The best force for change I have is to get you all talking about this. I'm sure that will bother some, but hey that's part of the fun.
- I will also continue to pursue the IP. Honestly, it will not be with haste. It will be done in times that I have too much time on my hands. And those times are few and becoming fewer. I also realize that my statements will make it nearly impossible for me to find a master if and when I do complete the IP. Honestly (again), I think that is a good thing. If a master does take me s/he will be one of broader horizons and bigger dreams. They will need them if they plan to take me as their apprentice.
- I will continue to share my ideas and dreams with as many people as I can. It may not be me that makes my dreams come true, but by sharing them someone else might.

Conclusion
- My statements here are sure to have a wide effect. I am sure many will be angry or offended. To be expected when you are asking for change and pointing out those that have caused the stagnation. The hope is that this might open the eyes of some to the idea that there should be more than this for Jediism. That we can become more. And that there are others that believe as you do, that it is all possible.
- I may not be the most active member here but I promise I will respond to any response here as well as direct messages sent to me. I will also be signing in primarily to partake in any discussions related to the topics stated above.
- I hope that you all understand that I made this not to blame or aggravate others. I made this to get the discussion going, to present my views and tell you all why I hold them.
- To those of you aggravated at me and saying "Fine then, go away, no one cares". People do care. I will never go away. But you are in luck because I'm done with this post. Peace!

Before responding please keep in mind that I am half-way through lesson one of the IP. Due to this, I may be ignorant of some of the process. I would argue, however, that in the broader sense my statements will still hold true.

I really disagree with your point of view, first this is an order, if you want to become a jedi alone go, if you went look for the temple and other jedi this is the place and as every group there are elder members, masters, aprendices, it's just natural. So your claims dont make any sence... If you dont agree with the IP you can talk to the council and explain your point of view or doing an conclusion in your journal saying that you didnt agreed with some topics of the ip, i dont think it's the case, i belive as your said ( 6 hours of my life) you just don't want to do it, and i quote again " Why should time spent watching and reading some good material be the way to make a Jedi? Does a rank, a banner, on this website mean anything except that one has spent a lot of time grinding through some palpable time management and critical thinking skills? Why should I prove my understanding of Jediism and the force through this IP? " as i said before in some topic in the forum not everyone can become a jedi, you seem to be one of them, the IP is to teach us some values many people don't have, teach us what is important to a jedi and to me the more important teaching that the IP gives is PATIENCE, and you my friend have a very serious lack of patience. Another lesson my friend here in the temple you learn the values of the jedi, you learn the jedi code and the jedi path, being a jedi that only depends on you and your actions, this is not a police station of a fire fighter this is a temple, you go the church to learn about cristianity they don't tell you to do this or that, this is a place of learning and to other jedi meet, talk and improve their lifes this is not a military base or an international organization to help children in Africa, learn to show some respect, be happy to have a website where you can find other jedi. You will learn your place young one.

I think many people come here thinking that we have a phisical temple and we use robes and ligthsabers and fight General Grievous (like you) but please go back the the real world, we are a religion based of Star Wars jedi, that is based of a mixed of religions, like Budhism, so i don't know what are you looking for, but you are wrong, this an online temple where jedi can meet, and learn the ways of the jedi, of course starw ars fans know what a jedi belive and what a jedi is, i see myself as a jedi since i saw ep.I with seven years old in 1999, i know everything about the jedi and what they belive i read a lot about the jedi, but i want to be apart of this order. As i said i saw myself as jedi long before joining the temple, but it's good to be part of something real and not just in my mind and knowing that there are other people that belives in the same thing.Christianity begin with a few people in Judea and become something big and today is the largest religion of the world. We are few yes and maybe there are a lot of people that come here and the give up, it's not easy to be a jedi, but 'ts my life and i would never give up on jediism.

Thank you for your response Anison. The mixed order of writing out the points of your post in my previous post was intentionally to make it a little bit less structured and more interesting to read, I guess. Your analytical capabilities seems to be very strong and I appreciate you reading my words using those skills. I find the way you observe things amazingly beautiful. :blush:

The Temple can afford to get rid of one servant; a pawn. If TotJO needs to revoke my membership for the greater good, I gladly cooperate. Though my ego is not going to like it at all. I like to stay here. :blush: This will be my last post here in this thread. If you need my ear you can always PM me..

May the Force shine with you,

~

Anison wrote: to Codex:
- This is my new favorite post in this thread. You present well explained and thought out views. I did have some trouble figuring out how some of it related to my post but I think I understand the synoptic message as "this is the way we [strike]like[/strike] it, that doesn't mean it is your way just that it is ours and we [strike]prefer[/strike] it this way". I have no problem with this. My post was to point out my point of view on where things are, why they are like that, and what could be done differently to achieve the results I would like to see.
- Other parts of your post seem to be highlighting "points of view". I have to say that I disagree with some of this. If you word it as such, everything is a point of view. Dedication is proving that you care about something through meaningful action. This is not a point of view, it is a case. It is truth. It's even in the definition of the word itself, which was given to avoid this very thing (the "well depending on your point of view it could mean..." thing).
- The last part of your post is amazing. I like the reference to the "parting of the seas". You are right, if one believes in that they simply can not denounce any part of Jediism as unfounded or bogus.
- Your last full paragraph is the stuff that makes me hopeful. If you are honest in what you say then I hope this Order does not lose you because it can't afford to.
- Overall, again, best post I have seen. That's why I didn't keep it short as I said I would here. It was worth diving into. Another thing while I am talking about this post, look at the respectful tone, grammar, and vocabulary used. A respectful post gets a respectful response. Some should take note.

I know you said that you're checking out for a while, but I'm going to respond anyhow.

1. Problems with the Order:
-Part of our doctrine is the idea of creating harmony out of chaos. That doesn't mean that we lack innovation, but that we advance at a pace that promotes harmony rather than upheaval.
-If you're not interested in bringing harmony to the world, why choose Jediism? It is one of our core beliefs.
-I can't speak for others, but I know that I regularly discuss Jedi teachings in the appropriate venues, so clearly they are people who bring Jedi teachings into the world.
-

2. The Temple:
- My trust in the Council is not blind. It comes from public observation and personal interaction over the course of the past year that I've been an active member. Please do not assume to know my reasons or anyone else's.
-"Won't stop me if I am able to gain the means. However, in that case, it will be my Temple. I don't think many of you would be pleased with that based on your current view of me. However, you'd probably be brought to change your mind." - This sounds an awful lot like a hostile takeover. What, exactly, is your vision for TotJO? And if your vision differs THAT much from our doctrine, why not found your own faith based on your vision? Why are you so bent on having "your way"?

3. Keyboard Jedi:
-Yes, they do so "as a Jedi," though that may or may not require them to announce publicly that they are a Jedi. As always, that remains a personal choice. Why is public visibility so important to you?
-I have friends who have been asking me about my studies and following my progress. They care about my title. I have seen family members who have shared articles I post about Jediism with others saying "Hey, this is Leah's religion I was telling you about!." We can only really influence the people in our immediate vicinity, so if you want to make a difference in the way Jediism is seen, ditch the Coup on the Council and start in your own back yard.

4. What you want:
-Many Jedi are involved in their communities and have the respect of those communities based on the good that they do. Why is it so important for you to have recognition? We are tasked to do good in the world because the world needs people who do good, not because we want accolades.
-My profile picture is not my "Jedi uniform." I'm a cosplayer, and it's a Star Wars cosplay. If you take a look at my other pictures, you'll find many other cosplays. In fact, my first profile picture is my Mass Effect cosplay. Does that means I consider myself to be an Alliance Spectre because I'm wearing the "uniform"?
-Some faiths have clothing/accessories that people can use to identify them as members: yarmulka, hijab, crucifix pendants, mala, robes, a Sunday hat. But many people don't wear any visual indicators at all, because their faith is a part of them that cannot be taken on or off. Some don't want to be identified/categorized by their beliefs. TotJO allows people to do as their conscience requires when it comes to visual representations of Jediism.

5. What you will do:
- You're going to be waiting a long time if you don't learn to consider the views/experiences of others rather than your own desires.

6. Other thoughts:
-You have made many assumptions here about TotJO members and practices . They may be based on observation or research, but that doesn't make them fact.
-You don't have to give up on your dreams, but if they don't fit with what is done here, why stay? Or why try to forcibly reshape our values so that they fit with yours? What do you hope to achieve from that?
-If you want to help others, help others. That shouldn't require that you rage against the TotJO machine.
-What are you trying to prove?

...I thought the scrambled egg analogy was pretty good...

Oh well. I'll scramble my way, you scramble yours.