The Problems with TotJO

I would never tell anyone to "fall in line" Anison. I'm telling you to check your ego at the door and do the work. It starts with even a basic understanding of the Teachings and Maxims here, which you clearly do not have. Either that, or you disagree with them or choose to ignore them. That's fine, by the way, but until you can justify your position with anything other than unsupported and unsolicited opinions, you are just playing arm chair quarterback.

You say a knight should be more Jedi than a member just as the Pope should be more Catholic than a guest of the church. You do realize that the Pope treats all Catholics as equally important in the eyes of a God, right? And would you walk into the Vatican and tell the Pope he's doing Catholicism wrong the way you have accused the Knights here of doing Jedi wrong?

In short, get over yourself and then get to work on yourself. Nobody here owes you anything.

So, if you've seen what's out there and chose to come here and criticize, it would seem that you're seeking perfection to close the gap between your vision of what Jediism should be and reality.

I feel like I'm about to invent a new proverb...

Something about how when you look at a T-Shirt on the ground, it's a flat sheet and looks like it could never possibly go on a human, no one is that flat? It doesn't make sense, but then you put it on and it fits and everything makes sense.

Someone sort out the syntax for that and put it on a bookmark!

First my response to your response to my response:

- I am questioning whether it is worth obtaining a rank within TotJO and whether that rank would actually mean anything (repeating myself here again). So it's not a question of what I have to do to get a fancy banner on here. I know what I'd have to do. I'm asking: Is it worth it? Would it actually mean anything?

No one can make that decision for you. Either you find it worth it, or you don't. None of us will tell you otherwise, because it's your path. As to the rank... I certainly hope that you wouldn't be doing the steps purely for the rank, and that that's not your only reason for questioning things. If the rank is the only thing you care about - and honestly based on your next response, it appears that it has at least a high level of concern for you - then you're looking at this entire thing for the wrong reasons. But ultimately. . . .

That's like saying a guest in the catholic church is just as much a Catholic Christian as the Pope. Totally absurd. The idea that it is either recognized or encouraged is seriously disheartening. It should be true that a Master here is more a Jedi than a guest, but my case is that often they aren't and even if they were there isn't a good way to prove it. That's what gives validity to views like the one I have quoted above.

The IP and the programs here are purely required for on site advancement. And I think maybe that's where some of the mix up is occurring? We don't say that a person is a Jedi based upon their rank. We say that they are a Jedi based upon their behavior. To your example here, it's not at all absurd. There could easily be a Catholic out there who some might determine are more Catholic than the pope, but they are not the pope because they chose not to pursue rank within the Church. For those guests I mentioned, it is often the same thing. Their behavior epitomizes Jedi-ness, but they have opted not to pursue the programs on the site that are a requirement for advancement within the site. Or, in some cases, they had pursued the program, obtained the rank, and then later resigned from the rank for a variety of personal reasons. They are no less the Jedi now as they were prior to resigning. But again, this is based purely because of the fact that Jediism recognizes that....

- While I am glad there are other options

There are other options and each person's path is entirely unique. Which is why there isn't "a baseline, founded Jedi Order," nevermind the fact that each separate order views things differently. It's no different than the various Christian denominations, since you've started that analogy.

As I said above a lack of a physical location does diminish the reality of this order. It's easy to dismiss a website, much harder to dismiss Jedi standing in front of you in their own Temple.

This is a moment where we'll simply have to agree to disagree.

- Do they require you do these things as A JEDI?

Well for the masters who require it, it is viewed that you will be doing so as a "Jedi" but that's because Jediism, at least by those who I'm familiar with, is viewed as a life time / daily practice, and so it is assumed that anything you do, you "do as a Jedi".

- I have said it before, if time does not allow you to give the amount of dedication that joining the Jedi Order should demand then it is, in my opinion, not for you. If one truly cared about joining a true Jedi Order, they'd make the time.

Once again, going to the Christian analogy you brought up previously: no other church requires their members to put their life requirements to the side simply to remain as members and continue learning from that Church. Why should TOTJO? Further, what I, Rosalyn, Marta, Zenchi, and any number of individuals who have replied on this thread view as "time required to be dedicated to being a Jedi" is going to be vastly different. But then again, all of us who I just mentioned, and again I think as a whole who have been putting effort to this site, do so with a commitment to life and not just a webforum. What we do as Jedi, we don't limit to the site. I won't even speak to your whole 'true Jedi order' thing because that goes back to denominations and what have you... there is no such thing as a "true" any religious order, in any religious path, because no one can ultimately say what's right and what's wrong.

I don't need to follow each of you around. It doesn't take that level of research to see the things that I do. If we were all going around "Jedi-ing it up" I would hear about it. Through the news, an article, something. Sure there are some small groups doing small things. At least they are on the right track. But it is not enough. There needs to be more of us doing it more often.

Really? Those things you dismissed as simply being "busy" are my life commitments. By fulfilling them and growing as an individual on a daily basis, I am, in fact, "Jedi-ing it up". You seem to think that the Jedi should be some sort of evangelical order that goes around proselytizing and trying to make names for ourselves, but that's not what being a Jedi is about.

This is mostly a repeated point. "Most of us take it seriously." Really? Why is it still mostly just a website?

Simple. None of us require it to be anything more than that because, as I've stated so many times before, we recognize and live it as a daily thing, in our so called 'regular lives'. We don't need it to be a physical location. Sure, that might be nice, but it's totally unnecessary. A physical location will do nothing to change whether or not my commitment changes one way or the other. It is what it is. Fairly certain others would say the same.

1. I can't help what I don't have access to. Though I'd bet it's probably best for the senior ranking that I am limited. Surely seeing those posts would only further my belief and drive to do something about it.

I doubt that it would, but if you feel that way if you ever actually get to that point, then by all means feel that way. You're right you can't help not knowing what you don't have access to, but you'd probably do well to remember that you don't have access to everything and to judge an entire community based on a partial view isn't entirely fair to the members of that community.

2.
- I have not. If it were up to me we'd be talking face to face about these things in a temple. This forum would be largely secondary to address the accessibility problem. Which I'd counter with trying to spread our reach via Temples to more corners of the globe.

There's literally no reason to 'spread our reach [...] to more corners of the globe'. Jediism is a purely personal path, not an evangelical path, as I've already stated.

As I have said above, I do not support posts that aren't about Jediism or furthering its progress. That is the same as being inactive. I don't see a double standard there.
- For your last question: They aren't, so no I don't consider that.

Once again, you continue to assume so much. For one, who are you to say what is and is not about Jediism, when we've told you that it's about life and how you live it. Unless you actively see what we do with the rest of our lives away from this site, you cannot say whether or not we are being Jedi away from the site. Further, you're ignoring the problem you've created with your position. Either people here are active posting on site and thus keyboard Jedi only, or they don't post to your standards and therefore aren't Jedi at all. That is the argument you've made, based on assumptions that are faulty, which more than one person has pointed out as faulty. You'd do yourself a favor by no continuing to assume as much.

I am not saying that I want us to become the Christian faith and follow its system or foundation. However, elements of it should be used to make something that I think would be more attractive and successful. A true Jedi Order.

Nope. No. No thanks, and no again. This isn't about attractiveness as an organization, or even successfulness as an organization. It's about self. End of story. Also, no such thing as a 'true Jedi Order' as I think I've already stated, any more than there's such a thing as a 'true Christian denomination', so you might as well drop it because that's not going to happen.


[hr]
Next, an overall generalized response:

You're questioning things based upon arbitrary concepts such as a rank on a site and the concept that we should be out there spreading 'the good Jedi news' to the world. That is not what Jediism about. It never has been about that, and none of the other groups (at least in my experience) are going to say otherwise. It is purely about development of self. We obtain that self development in a myriad of ways, this is true, but that's because self improvement cannot be a one shoe fits all approach. It has to be tailored. I've said it before, but I'll repeat once again, what you see on this site does not reflect the full dimensions which our members engage in to improve themselves. This is why we say you shouldn't be judging our "Jedi-ness" by our posting and by a website, why we say you can't because you don't know what we do away from the site. And I'm sorry, but the things you speak of expecting from a Jedi organization are better expected from one of the mainstream religions. There is no "collective lack of dedication" as you blabbed on to Kit. There is merely dedication in a way which you are refusing to acknowledge and accept as true dedication and frankly, that issue exists within you alone.

I'm going to echo what so many others have said: Stick around and learn what it's all about here. And by that, I mean put in more than just six hours to a single lesson. If you find it 'worth your time' then great. If not, you'll still have learned something in the process, or at least I certainly hope you will have. Or, if based on our responses, you decide now it's not worth your time in the slightest, by all means go create something that is.


[hr]
Finally, a response to a few off hand statements you made that I should probably be ignoring but am opting to not ignore because I can choose to do so:

- Many statements were repeated by many of you. Please read through a thread before responding to it.

We do read the other statements. Nothing stops us from being allowed to repeat them because we're entitled to posting similar opinions. And on these matters, basically all of the opinions are - as has been shown - very similar. We're not going to not participate in a conversation simply because someone else has already stated what we're going to say. Get over it.

- In the future please gather all of your statements and views into one post. It makes it easier for everyone. If you can not, at least specify that you are going to post again with the same focus in mind.

My first reply was in response to your OP. My second and third posts were in response to having read through the thread more thoroughly and then a follow up thought I had a little bit later, since it's generally understood and accepted here that if you have thoughts a bit after an initial post, you post it as a new response, not as an edit, to allow for the possibility of posts to take place in between the time of your initial post and your additional statements. It's not my fault if you have an issue with that, and I'll continue to post in response how I feel. Again, get over it. That response goes back to your 'format your posts' statement, as well. Thank you.

"f you go out and simply do "Jedi things" without wearing the uniform do you think they will relate your actions as Jedi actions?"

Again, why should it matter whether they relate the things I do to my being a Jedi, or if they related it to Mr. Peanut. Why should I care who gets the credit for the good deeds. That seems to me to be doing it for glories sake. I don't do things for the sake of hoping for praise or reward. If I did that, any actions I did would seem pretty shallow. It's enough that a person needed help and got help, not that I get credit for it, or that TOTJO gets credit for it.

Anison wrote: So you're wrong. There can and will be a true Jedi Order.

And when it does, there will be someone making a case against it, not because it is based on fiction, but because it is not the "truest true" Jedi Order that it could be.

How do you know when you have arrived?

This is worth repeating....

rrhodes67 wrote: "f you go out and simply do "Jedi things" without wearing the uniform do you think they will relate your actions as Jedi actions?"

Again, why should it matter whether they relate the things I do to my being a Jedi, or if they related it to Mr. Peanut. Why should I care who gets the credit for the good deeds. That seems to me to be doing it for glories sake. I don't do things for the sake of hoping for praise or reward. If I did that, any actions I did would seem pretty shallow. It's enough that a person needed help and got help, not that I get credit for it, or that TOTJO gets credit for it.

Here's my last input:

I would also like for those reading to go look at the users that "said thank you" to tzb's post (dated April 24, 2017, 15:00). Notice their ranks. I hope that helps you understand exactly what I am up against. It is why I have made it my view that something new is needed. The foundation of this Order is what I am questioning and it is likely the truth that changing any of that foundation would only destroy the whole thing. I do not desire to do that, but I do desire things that I believe this Orders foundation will not allow for and likely would not be adaptable to.

You can question the foundation of the Order all you like, but what you're really trying to do is change the core nature of the Order into something that suits your specific desires. Given that bit of information you might very well find it better accomplished by founding an Order of your own liking, because the things you want to change here, are the very things that the rest of us find the most benefit from here. It would not be an adaptation, but a total change, and in doing so, we would lose the very things that make TOTJO the home for us. A little bit more respect on your part to that and you'll see those of us who thanked his post, did so because his post resonates with the rest of what we've been saying. Perhaps then you'll realize that, it's not some 'manual that's been passed around on how to silence dissenters' but the actual way that TOTJO is.

Anison,

I truly want to thank you for your posts. I believe it takes great courage to hold to your convictions in the face of numerous and repetitive contrary opinions.
But mostly I want to thank you for challenging me on a personal level: not that you have singled me out but because your posts have brought up a lot of feelings for me which I have been working to resolve before wading into this conversation.

I am trying very hard to take your statements on their own merits as they deserve, however one of the things I have personally found difficult in reading through this thread is that I keep drawing parallels between my understanding of your messages and the attitudes of numerous students I have had in my years as a martial arts instructor. You see, as a black belt, I am frequently faced with new 'students' who come to my classes and just want to 'be' a black belt. I have had students tell me the things I am teaching them are 'wrong' or won't work 'in the real world' or tell me how something they know is better than what I know. Students of this caliber invariably fail to recognise or simply ignore that I once started exactly where they are now and that I got to where I am over the course of 25 years of training: they want the short cut and they rarely stay long. A lot of that is my fault as an instructor. However, the students that come to learn, over a few short years, learn everything I have learned over decades and then add to that what they have learned from themselves and others to create something more than I have taught.

I will say that I have very strong opinions about what the rank or title of 'Black Belt' ought to mean in the martial arts arena, however I recognise that I can really only determine what it means to be a black belt in my school and that it is up to the actions of my black belts to give meaning to that in the real world: it is not my place to rewrite the definition of Black Belt.

Enough about me, I simply wanted to provide some context for my response.


Please take a look at this picture and tell us what you see?


Is it a rabbit or a duck?


Is this a young lady or an old woman?

And for the love of all that is holy, could you tell me if the dress was white and gold or blue and black?

My point is that people see things through the lens of their own experience and intentions and thus see things differently from others. Two people can see the same thing entirely differently and both be right. From that point they can either argue that what they see is 'right' or they can openly explore what the other sees to gain a greater understanding. Which seems more 'Jedi' to you?

Like you, I am around halfway through Lesson 1 of the IP (though I've skipped ahead and read the materials for Lesson 2 and watched the video for lesson 3). As such, I extend to you an invitation to work through the IP with me, should you so desire, to discuss the lessons and gain an understanding of each other's perspectives since they clearly differ. Of course, this is contingent on you deciding the IP has sufficient value to merit its completion.

One last point though: you have indicated a number of times you don't believe the IP is sufficient to warrant the awarding of 'higher ranks' at TotJO. Can I ask what you mean by a 'higher rank'? Because completion of the IP only grants you the rank/title of Initiate. Apprentice, Knight, Senior Knight, Master and any other title besides Novice or Member require additional work and involvement both on the forums and in your offline life.

I look forward to further thought provoking input from you.

JamesSand wrote:

So, if you've seen what's out there and chose to come here and criticize, it would seem that you're seeking perfection to close the gap between your vision of what Jediism should be and reality.

I feel like I'm about to invent a new proverb...

Something about how when you look at a T-Shirt on the ground, it's a flat sheet and looks like it could never possibly go on a human, no one is that flat? It doesn't make sense, but then you put it on and it fits and everything makes sense.

Someone sort out the syntax for that and put it on a bookmark!

Something profound like: "An unworn shirt fits no one."?

We had a very inspiring TotJO times Newsletter edition on a few of your concerns , maybe read it and get back to me on what your thoughts are , i am not against rocking the boat ( understatement i know geez gimme a break) but the way you state it , its like there is no hope , i resent that ,..not a nasty way but still ..