The Problems with TotJO

It would seem at this point we are mostly talking to ourselves now, but this has been a good exercise and I've gotten a lot out of the varied responses so far. All I would really add as advice to anyone questioning the intentions of this place is to simply go to the source. Read the Doctrine. Then read it again. Then try to apply the teachings and maxims to your life now and find where you are falling short. Then the work starts. Only then can any of us really be in a position to critique anything here.

My interpretation of the Doctrine includes a whole lot of "let go of your ego". Claiming to know what is best for this place or the Jedi here flies directly in the face of that, so I try to avoid being judgmental.

Anison,

It seems as though you are at a crossroads. You have a general direction that you think Jedism should go, and the Temple is leading down a different path. So which path is right? In reality, both sides can be right or wrong, depending on the individual following the path. For some, the Jedi path laid out by the Temple is the right path, and for others it is not, and they must travel a different road, even though both will lead you to an individual understanding of Jedism.

The problem, as I see it, is that you haven't journeyed far enough down the Temple path to see if it is right for you. In the Karate Kid, Daniel could not understand how washing and waxing all of the cars, or sanding the deck and painting the fence would help him be a karate master, but each of those tasks helped him learn a necessary movement that led to his karate success. The same can be said about the IP - each lesson builds on the last to help you understand the guiding principles of our order. If you were to just take Joseph Campbell as a standalone lesson, then yes, you could get disillusioned. A lot of people don't really get "The Heroes Journey," but it is important to understand where George Lucas was coming from when he created the fictional Jedi order. So too can "The Game of Black and White" give people problems, but it is an important piece of the puzzle. Those two lessons may be the hardest you will face in the IP, but they are an important foundation. In essence, how can you know the IP is wrong if you haven't studied it to the end to see if it gets you to the right place or not.

My advice would be to finish the IP before you try to make changes to it. Maybe you will get to the end, and still not get to where you want to be, but you will at least know what isn't right for you.

The best thing about Jediism, in my opinion, is it's individualist approach. One of my favorite things about that approach is that it allows me to be okay when people tell me that they think it should be different. You know what? Cool. You do you.

To me it's like making scrambled eggs. No two people make them quite the same way, even if they try. They always come out slightly different. Who am I to tell you that you make scrambled eggs wrong? What does it matter to me if your scrambled eggs are different than mine?

To make it better, you can alter how you cook eggs over time. Maybe I like something you do better and I alter my eggs to be more like yours. Then I do the same thing with someone else's. Then, years down the road, I might taste the best scrambled eggs I've ever had and begin to reconsider every step in my egg making process. That's great. That is Jediism.

But at the end of the day the only person who has to love the way that you cook scrambled eggs is you and you don't have to give two hoots about how someone else cooks theirs.

What's the point of that rambling response you ask? Don't worry so much about how others do things. Worry about how you do things. Also, don't knock a person's eggs until you try them. That can be both literal and metaphorical.

The best thing about Jediism, in my opinion, is it's individualist approach.

Tsst.




I actually only wanted the "uniform" bit, but couldn't find it.

I find Ephialtes a very sympathetic character, many of us can identify at some point in our lives with wanting a Group with Standards that we can Join and by association, share that Glory.

(It's not an all bad thing, pomp and ceremony has its place)

At some point in my life, when things were all bad, when the stars aligned and my poor decisions collided with others' ill will and I was left sans identity (and money, and relationships and all that other good stuff that makes waking up worthwhile) I looked for an organisation* that would give me a "uniform" a Shell to prop me up, like an exoskeleton.

This is possibly where disillusionment with TotJO comes from - some people come here looking for that Uniform, when it turns out that's not what is being sold here, it can be disappointing.



*

James ... May I use that I love it !
"This is possibly where disillusionment with TotJO comes from - some people come here looking for that Uniform, when it turns out that's not what is being sold here, it can be disappointing."
I see that idea and that type of disillusion in real life as well ,that expectation... that's Kinna silly and we don't make it and it ends our world ... I know it would mine, only speaking from experience . Thank s in advance and my box is open always ! I love this place still! Keep seeking keep finding ! (Not verbatim like me but more free , like me) just a pun on words enjoy the rest of your day Jedi and make it the best or a better one ! May the Living Force we do share and do not, find y'all where you seek it.

First and foremost I want to thank you all for taking the time to respond to both mine and others statements. When I woke up this morning and saw that there were 20+ posts on this thread since my last response I was thrilled. It confirms to me that what we are talking about here is of importance and needs more discussion. So I thank you all. Now, let's dive in.

- Many statements were repeated by many of you. Please read through a thread before responding to it.
- I will be going in order starting from the one after my last post.

to Avalonslight:
- First of all, this is one of the more dedicated and thoughtful responses. Thank you.
- I will be addressing your points by going through the list of quotations of my post that you used.

1st Quotation:
- It is not the only Jedi Path, very true. I am glad no one is telling me that I have to use this website in order to be a Jedi. They would find that the level of which I can be a.... handful is surprising.
- I am questioning whether it is worth obtaining a rank within TotJO and whether that rank would actually mean anything (repeating myself here again). So it's not a question of what I have to do to get a fancy banner on here. I know what I'd have to do. I'm asking: Is it worth it? Would it actually mean anything?
- "...there are plenty here who are guests who are just as much Jedi as those who are ranked as Masters, and in general that is not only recognized by encouraged." This is the fundamental problem with TotJO. That's like saying a guest in the catholic church is just as much a Catholic Christian as the Pope. Totally absurd. The idea that it is either recognized or encouraged is seriously disheartening. It should be true that a Master here is more a Jedi than a guest, but my case is that often they aren't and even if they were there isn't a good way to prove it. That's what gives validity to views like the one I have quoted above.
- While I am glad there are other options I do not view that as a completely good thing. There needs to be a baseline, founded Jedi Order. There isn't, and that is one of the larger hurdles.

2nd Quotation:
- It isn't physically in the real world, that's why I say that. At least it isn't as much as it should be. The best thing we have here are our members. That's the reason I scrutinize what they are doing and saying so much.
- I know that the lessons here are taken into real life by some but because it is just a website it makes it easy to toss them once you log out.
- As I said above a lack of a physical location does diminish the reality of this order. It's easy to dismiss a website, much harder to dismiss Jedi standing in front of you in their own Temple. Also, I made statements about the accessibility you speak of. It is a double sided coin. Please read my original post.

3rd Quotation:
- Do they require you do these things as A JEDI? I doubt it. But as I stated I am not ranked as an apprentice here and am only in the beginning of the IP. So I may be ignorant of the information that might give me that answer. I can make a highly probable educated guess though.

4th Quotation:
- You are busy. Welcome to the club. You speak as though this makes you an outlier. I doubt that it does in any of the ranks above Member. But sometimes I seriously question that doubt.
- I have said it before, if time does not allow you to give the amount of dedication that joining the Jedi Order should demand then it is, in my opinion, not for you. If one truly cared about joining a true Jedi Order, they'd make the time. And I think most would if it were a true Jedi Order.

5th Quotation:
- I don't need to follow each of you around. It doesn't take that level of research to see the things that I do. If we were all going around "Jedi-ing it up" I would hear about it. Through the news, an article, something. Sure there are some small groups doing small things. At least they are on the right track. But it is not enough. There needs to be more of us doing it more often.

6th Quotation:
- This is mostly a repeated point. "Most of us take it seriously." Really? Why is it still mostly just a website?

7th Quotation:
- You are seeing something different than I do. And of course, that section has surely vastly changed since I made my original post. The point, however, is that most of it is the same stuff you'd see in any other forum. This is The Temple of the Jedi Order. It shouldn't be just another forum. Unfortunately, for the most part, it has every indication of being just that.

8th Quotation:
- It should be when there are more important things to discuss. This also goes into a fundamental problem we see here where many of the members view this as more of a fan club. That would be alright if it were called "Star Wars Fan Club". But it isn't. We should want more but it seems as though many have submitted to being ok with that. Very sad, but true.

9th Quotation:
- You misunderstood me. First of all, it is my opinion that Jediism could be viewed as the best spirituality the world has ever seen. It allows for diversity and acceptance in many ways that other religions/spiritualities don't for truly poor reasons. It has the bedrock to be one of the best at least, I think we would all agree to that.
- I never said to do what you state in the last part of this. Do not know where you got that impression.

10th Quotation:
- Again, I looked.

11th Quotation:
- I think I have already made it clear that I take everyone's responses seriously. I will continue to make that clear.
- I do think it is this simple and this straightforward. This whole thing either stagnates and dies or grows. That's how life works. And I don't think it's growing fast enough to survive. At least not in the way that I want it to.
- I spend 90% of my time concerned with myself. That inward focus allows for an outward focus that I think is bringing light to important issues not just on this site but in my community as well. So I do find it more worthwhile. Sad to see that you clearly do not think I do. I guess it speaks to your point that we can not know exactly what others do with their time off this site.

- Thank you for your statements and views. Some of it was a bit repetitive but I hope I addressed them all in exactly the way you wished.

to Leah Starspectre:
- Ah, another returning face. I think you were one of the first to welcome me here. Thank you for your attention, it has helped me become as involved as I have here.
- I will be going through your response using the numerical and bulleted system you have used. Thank you for having a format!

1. Problems with the Order, Response:
- It is likely I have misused the word provocation. Thank you for catching me on that. However, if I have not used the word then it is you who has misused it. When one speaks of important things they can be provocative. It does not make them any less important. So I do not care if they have provoked. I would say provocation is more the fault of the one that has been provoked than it is the provoker. Examine why something might bother you, there is surely something insightful to be found there.
- I will say what many have surely assumed by this point. I am not interested in things running smoothly around here. Look where it has gotten us. Relatively nowhere. What they did when they created this website and the work that has gotten it to this point is respectable. The lack of that same trend of innovation is what you call "running smoothly". That's why I'm not interested in it.
- Do. They. Use. Those. Teachings. Under. The. Title. Of. Jedi? No. So I do not think they have made a "Jedi" improvement, only one to themselves.

2. The Temple, Response:
- You trust it too much and without good reason. Most of you do. That's why it hasn't happened yet.
- Exactly, much harder for the one than the many though wouldn't you say? Won't stop me if I am able to gain the means. However, in that case, it will be my Temple. I don't think many of you would be pleased with that based on your current view of me. However, you'd probably be brought to change your mind.
- "potential issues" "for now". I think the love that you speak of for the idea would overcome it all.

3. Keyboard Jedi, Response:
- Generally, are they required to do so AS A JEDI? Then, again, it is a personal development, not a Jedi development. Sure they go hand in hand, but that is not what is required here. It should be.
- And weakness. I am trying to find out which there is more of. Scary that the answer is so elusive. I almost take that as the answer itself.
- Yes, it is, tell someone that is not a part of this website that you are an Apprentice here. They will not care. They should if things were the way they should be. Like the title of "Pope", our titles, if earned appropriately, should mean something. They do not. I want that to change. But that also means changing the rest of it.

4. What you want, Response:
- We should be. That involvement in the community is what demands the respect that we should have.
- Why is your picture of you (or someone else) dressed in the Jedi uniform? Why do soldiers wear uniforms? Why do priests? It means something. It gives meaning. A meaning this Order does not have but should.
- Nothing. Have I made a statement that leads you to believe that I have been stopped? If anything I think I have indicated that I can not be.

5. What you will do, Response:
- It keeps the hope that things will change alive. You putting it into your own dismissive words will not stop me from keeping that hope alive by doing what I have done since I got here. Doing this.
- It will endear me to the right one. That's the one I want. Not the ones that will be deterred by those statements.
- Trust me I will do everything I can to make my dreams come true. But if I can't then I'm prepared to wait for however long I have to to see our dreams come true.

6. Other thoughts, Response:
- Agreed.
- I am new here. I am not new to Jediism or studies into what has killed and given rise to many spiritualities/religions around the world. They are not assumptions, I have done my research. I make both specific and broad statements, both are equally as important. I have spoken one-on-one to many here who feel as if they have been suppressed for holding the views and dreams that I also do. I will not give up on my dreams or theirs and I hope that by starting the discussion they will feel supported enough to make their statements publicly too.
- It is real in my life and has changed it entirely. I dream to one day reach out to more and help them too. That is why I am doing this. My faith has never and will never depend on the actions of others. It is mine.

to Rosalyn:
- Thank you for continuing to stay active in this discussion.
- I will apply a numerical system for each line, or clumps of lines, of your response.

1. I am aware. I see that some of them while being smaller, are doing more than this entire Order does. Confusing but insightful.

- Skipping down to the line that starts with "This argument..."
2. You have nailed it on the head. Perfect analysis. I do not want to do what is set before me. For many reasons: I don't think it is fully indicative of a Jedi's understanding or wisdom, thus it does not indicate that one deserves the rank they might be given for accomplishing it. Furthermore what is set out before me is set out by a website, a forum, with members and leaders that (while having done some great things) have stagnated overall. I do not wish to be a part of a stagnant website, I want more. So why should I do what that website asks of me? My answer: I shouldn't.

- Confusion about inactive members:
- If you are speaking of the last line of your post before this one then I would say that being inactive and posting about meaningless things are the same in my opinion.

to Avalonslight's second and third post:
- In the future please gather all of your statements and views into one post. It makes it easier for everyone. If you can not, at least specify that you are going to post again with the same focus in mind.
- I will be using your numerical system and will be applying it to the paragraphs in your third post. Format your posts please people.

1. I can't help what I don't have access to. Though I'd bet it's probably best for the senior ranking that I am limited. Surely seeing those posts would only further my belief and drive to do something about it.

2.
- I have not. If it were up to me we'd be talking face to face about these things in a temple. This forum would be largely secondary to address the accessibility problem. Which I'd counter with trying to spread our reach via Temples to more corners of the globe.
- Right now this is where we are though and there are no Temples (someone's backyard shack is not a Temple, sorry. More of a personal sacred place). I support posting meaningfully. As I have said above, I do not support posts that aren't about Jediism or furthering its progress. That is the same as being inactive. I don't see a double standard there.
- For your last question: They aren't, so no I don't consider that.

3. "Please don't misunderstand our responses..."
- At this point, truthfully, I am not concerned with "fixing" TotJO. In my opinion, it's past that point for many reasons including yours that some truly do like it. What I am doing is saying here are the problems, why they are problems and some improvements to be considered for another more real Jedi Order. One that I think will take a stronger root and have the ability to grow beyond what is possible on a website.
4. "And don't get me wrong..."
- Our opinions here are simply different. No debate to be had. I am not saying that I want us to become the Christian faith and follow its system or foundation. However, elements of it should be used to make something that I think would be more attractive and successful. A true Jedi Order.

to Pcoronaf:
- Yes, an established online community. It is both your blessing and curse as I have said. Unfortunately, separation will likely occur between those that want to keep it online and those that desire it to be offline and in the real world (what I meant by "in the flesh", it means not words on a screen). It is truly unfortunate and I wish we could pick these members up and put them into the kind of community I want. The simple fact is they don't want to, which means they won't and I wouldn't try to make them.

to Trisskar:
- Another returning face, thank you for remaining active and dedicated to the important issues.
- I will respond quote by quote.

First quotation:
- It is but painfully slowly. This Order is not taking big enough steps to help push this extremely beneficial migration along and it should be.

Second quotation:
- I do not like it, that is a painful truth that I have seen thrown in my face as if it is somehow proof of success. It is not.
- It is good for accessibility like I said above, but in that way, it should be a secondary source of communication. There should be temples for those that can attend them.
- My hometown community laughs at the idea of Jediism. Something I am sure this community has felt many times and will continue to feel until we make them swallow their own words. Build a temple. Recruit members. Who would be laughing then?
- I am here because at least here I get some serious responses to my ideas. I thank you all again for that. It has helped me believe in what I do and know it is all possible. For those reasons, I am thankful for the website. Doesn't mean I agree with its direction.

Third quotation:
- I am not pissed that people are judging. If anything there is a lack of judgment going on here and I have addressed that.
- From what you say, if it is the truth, then you are what the Order needs far more of.

Fourth quotation:
- People follow my lead because my judgments are spot on. However, my goal is not to be followed. If someone else makes better headway then I will follow them. But I imagine most either don't feel there is a reason to respond here or are afraid of the kind of directed responses and attention I am getting.

Fifth quotation:
- Do you speak of the gathering of the stagnated Order that will likely by hundreds of miles away from me? I will pass. However, if they ever open a true Temple I will come there. I imagine millions will as well.

Sixth quotation:
- Ah but rightfully placed judgment and blaming are good posts.

Final remark:
- I will disappoint that hope unless you start building a Temple or founding the true Order I seek.

to Nai_Elyob:
- I am not going to give this emotionally plagued and aggravated response much time.
Why? His/her flippant use of vocabulary and passive-aggressive language contains no actual meaning or unemotional view of which I find useful to respond to.

to Zenchi:
- I enjoy responding to individuals who say they have felt the way I have about this Order, so thank you for your response. Unfortunately, this is getting dangerously lengthy so FROM HERE ON OUT I WILL (ATTEMPT) TO KEEP IT SHORT. YOU'RE WELCOME.
- Behind all of your statements concerning being publicly a Jedi, I sense the same kind of fear that was pointed out to me by someone of a concerningly high rank when I first got here. It's the fear that should you try to become publicly accepted as a Jedi that you would be ridiculed and unaccepted....at first. He told me that it is often cloaked behind "we don't need acceptance, it's my faith, not theirs, why is acceptance important, and so on". It is the classic psychological study that those who say they don't need acceptance are simply afraid they wouldn't be accepted. My response is that all great things start off being a joke to most. Everything from "the world is round" to "there is a place above the clouds" was considered a joke, at first. We must get over this fear by accepting it is there and realizing it is a necessary hurdle to the success of a true Jedi Order.

to Proteus:
- I am entirely lost as to what your point or view is. You suffer the same problems Nai does. You lose people in your words. A strong vocabulary is good to have but shouldn't be over-used. Use it meaningfully, not as a way to try and prove understanding. Ironically, doing so actually causes most to misunderstand you.

to Jamessand:
- I have done a couple parts of the first lesson of the IP, that is the difference between us. Truthfully it's the only difference between me and a Knight (yes yes I know, think of it in a broader sense).
- I will engage you further privately.

to Codex:
- This is my new favorite post in this thread. You present well explained and thought out views. I did have some trouble figuring out how some of it related to my post but I think I understand the synoptic message as "this is the way we like it, that doesn't mean it is your way just that it is ours and we prefer it this way". I have no problem with this. My post was to point out my point of view on where things are, why they are like that, and what could be done differently to achieve the results I would like to see.
- Other parts of your post seem to be highlighting "points of view". I have to say that I disagree with some of this. If you word it as such, everything is a point of view. Dedication is proving that you care about something through meaningful action. This is not a point of view, it is a case. It is truth. It's even in the definition of the word itself, which was given to avoid this very thing (the "well depending on your point of view it could mean..." thing).
- The last part of your post is amazing. I like the reference to the "parting of the seas". You are right, if one believes in that they simply can not denounce any part of Jediism as unfounded or bogus.
- Your last full paragraph is the stuff that makes me hopeful. If you are honest in what you say then I hope this Order does not lose you because it can't afford to.
- Overall, again, best post I have seen. That's why I didn't keep it short as I said I would here. It was worth diving into. Another thing while I am talking about this post, look at the respectful tone, grammar, and vocabulary used. A respectful post gets a respectful response. Some should take note.

to JLSpinner:
- Thank you for being concise. This has taken a while as I am sure you can imagine and some here really know how to stretch a simple statement/meaning into half a page of repetitive sentences.
- TotJO is great in many ways. I hope I have in no way alluded that I do not think that. I simply think it has much to work on and much to do if it is to truly survive.
- Thank you for the kind words. As a matter of fact, I do spend most of my time listening. I said something about it in an earlier post I think. There's a saying that goes "If all you do is speak, no one will ever listen." Very true words. So, I spend my time listening and when I feel I must or should, I speak.

to ZealotX:
- Wow...this is a long one. While we're giving advice I'd say that more can often be said in fewer words. I have two important points from your post I'd like to address.
1. It's about you, not the Order.
- Heard this before. Repetition, repetition, repetition. There must be a handbook on how to dispell dissenters. It's the only thing that makes sense at this point.
- If all that I want for a true Jedi Order were to come true and no one knew I had a single thing to do with it I'd be more happy than if they thought I did. I don't want the attention. I wish this had all been said and done long ago. But it hasn't and I feel that it won't if I don't help it along. That's the only reason I'm doing all of this.
2. Ridiculing Jedi Robes
- At least you wear that fear on your sleeve. As I have said above, at first everything is funny. Yes, at first the few of us would be laughed at. But would they laugh at thousands? Would they laugh at a temple? If I am not one of those or a part of the temple I would still be proud it was done. Again, I don't care to glorify myself. But appearance has meaning. The robes give meaning to the man wearing them as a Jedi. The Temple gives meaning to the Order as a real place of center. It is a simple truth. I guess those are the most often disputed though.

to tzb:
- I hate it when my assumptions of those of rank come true. But boy do they often.
- I do not expect a Senior Knight to happily agree with any of my accusations.
- I do not expect a Senior Knight to take my arguments seriously until I have done as much "work" as s/he has done. That being said there's a more than large chance that I will lead by example in proving that the IP does not have any indication of what makes a good Jedi deserving of their rank.
- Also, you are giving too much credit to many who aren't deserving of it in the last sentence of your first paragraph. Many here view the "weight" that their opinions and views hold based on a ranked badge. The system by which they earned it and why that is given respect is precisely what I am calling into question. Some time spent on a website should not be enough but I know (and so do you all) that that is all that is called into question when someone's rank is being considered.
- I would also like for those reading to go look at the users that "said thank you" to tzb's post (dated April 24, 2017, 15:00). Notice their ranks. I hope that helps you understand exactly what I am up against. It is why I have made it my view that something new is needed. The foundation of this Order is what I am questioning and it is likely the truth that changing any of that foundation would only destroy the whole thing. I do not desire to do that, but I do desire things that I believe this Orders foundation will not allow for and likely would not be adaptable to.

to rrhodes67:
- I'm going to keep this simple as you have and I thank you for that.
- If you go out and simply do "Jedi things" without wearing the uniform do you think they will relate your actions as Jedi actions? No, they wouldn't. Like I said above it's why many institutions require a uniform when work is being done in its name, it makes it so that people can put a name to the action. Otherwise, it's just an action and will be related to nothing but yourself. What could be more arrogant and selfish than that?

to Kit:
- Again, you drone on about your difficulties and why it is somehow an excuse for everyone's collective lack of dedication. If it is so hard and also such a low priority for someone then I think they shouldn't do it. I'd say I fit into that category too. The reason for my view of it being low priority is actually the same as yours if you think about it. It doesn't and wouldn't make an actual impact in my life.
- You make many statements that almost directly support my views. Again, if you can't dedicate then you shouldn't get the rank. No matter the reason. Sorry if that is hard to swallow but ask one of your superiors in the Air Force if it is ok if you do those things they ask whenever the rest of your life allows (furthermore, that you only do a little bit of it and only if it is accessible online). I guess they win you over with the cash they put in your pocket. Something to think about.
- The last part I think everyone should read and really think about. Kit goes back to why there are higher priorities in life and why that is a barricade to achieving the things I call for. Has anyone thought for a second that the fact that it is such a low priority for so many IS A PROBLEM and is one for the exact reasons I have stated? A true Jedi Order should have more impact on one's life and therefore become a higher priority.

to Brick:
- The last sentence of your first paragraph makes it seem as though I need help. I do not. Furthermore, I have found that most "help" that has been extended to me from members here is almost entirely unhelpful.
- I already addressed similar statements made by a previous post. Basically, you are saying "you don't have to do those things". I understand that. Like I said before, it is a terrifically good thing because I think that the IP and the "study" the FAQ talks about is not enough to actually validate someone as a higher rank.
- Overall a respectful and well-meaning post. Thank you, Brick.

to Kit (again):
- A lot of this is focused around my questioning of rank. You make some good points but as I have stated my views and opinions on this many times in this post alone I am going to spare you the repetition (something I wish you all would do for me).

to Luthien:
- I would love an explanation of "*kicks dead horse*".
- I know all of the things you have stated. Not only that but I have heard all of that before. Trust me, everyone, I know I can choose where I want to study Jediism. If I didn't have a choice I wouldn't be criticizing this one.

to Carlos.Martinez3:
- Read the second bullet of my response to Luthien.
- Guys, I get that it seems nice, "do what you will, it's your choice, entirely up to you". The resulting lack of coherence from this way of going about things is another problem this Order faces. Another double sided coin. A good and bad thing.

to Magnus Staar:
- YES! Something relatively new.
- Magnus, my friend, you have just walked right into one of my more serious concerns. Many have, do, and will dismiss a true Jedi Order because the original idea comes from movies. Where does Christianity come from? Islam? Hinduism? Books and sacred texts. I struggle to see what is so much better about that. Furthermore, the concept for Jediism comes from many different religions and spiritualities as another on this thread stated. The IP (and just the bit that I have seen) also makes this abundantly clear. So you're wrong. There can and will be a true Jedi Order. I could care less that the original idea comes from a movie. At least it's not from a book like the rest.

Here's a little lesson for any reading this:
- Before you read this understand that I am about to debunk the "truth" of many very large and popular religions so if you fall under that category I advise you do not read the rest of this.
- Almost every religion or spirituality is founded based on the personification of the stars in the sky and how they move as the Earth does. Furthermore, many religious texts are basically plagiarized from others before it.
- Here's an easy example: Jesus, the Son of God, is a literal plagiarism of the Egyptian god Horus, the Sun God. The words are simply changed around and new names are given.
- Think it's crap? I did too. Research it.
- Point? Many people pray to a god that is truthfully man's arrogant personification of stars and how they move about the "heavens". This means that no one has any right to say that their religion or spirituality is any more truthful than another's. It also debunks the idea that because something is fictional it should not be pursued in a serious way. Christianity has saved (and taken) lives based on fiction. What is more serious than that?

to Senan:
- More "just fall in line, it will be alright" and even more implications that my motivation is based on self-gain. Read my statements above.

to Rick
- This is a combination of "fall in line, everything will be alright" and a little more "do what you want, who is to say what is right and wrong?". Read my statements above.
- Sorry that I have said that so much but I just can't keep repeating myself.

to Goken:
- More "individualistic approach" (thanks for the better wording) and the majority of the post was about scrambled eggs............I'm going to be nice and go to the next one.

to Jamessand:
- I am not looking to don a uniform if it is indicative of this order. I am looking to don a uniform so that people can see me as not just myself but as a Jedi under a true Jedi Order. That is not what I see here, so I was never and am currently not looking for a uniform.

to Carlos.Martinez3:
- People do look for validation for their actions. That is a human truth. If you saved the world you wouldn't want it to tell you that it didn't care. I am trying to have my actions be validated as those of a Jedi by wearing a Jedi's robes. Yet, I am the selfish, arrogant, non-dedicated, and disillusioned one. I hope you see where my disdain for this order comes from.

FINAL WORDS
I have thoroughly enjoyed reading what you all have to say and responding to it. Knowing that so many of you care to give your opinions on the matter lets me know that it is an important one.

Unfortunately, I will likely not be logging on again for a few days or even a few weeks. But I will be back. When I am I will respond to your responses to this and keep the discussion going. You have my word. So please, do not let the important things go unnoticed. Keep the discussion going. Best wishes to you all and the Order as a whole.

Thanks ever so much for glossing over my reply and lumping me in with a host of others, you're quite wrong btw. My path doesn't have a dress code, and quite frankly, it's got absolutely nothing to do with fear, I dressed very gothic and in all black in a very redneck town for almost twenty years, so stop with the ridiculous assumptions...

No offense, but it doesn't seem you can for one minute see past the fiction, and that's not what our brand of Jediism is about, not even remotely. Stick around, get educated, and try to see past the aesthetics that brought you here, you may actually learn something of value....

You missed my point again. To put it simply, being a Jedi isn't about the rank, it's about what you DO.

The training here is to support and enhance your knowledge and practices. Why deny those who are out walking the walk by putting a time limit on when training should be done? All you'll end up with are keyboard warriors. Make up your mind. Which do you want? Pop tart Keyboard Jedi or Practicing Jedi? Because with your proposed system, all you'll get are pop tart Jedi.

Long training does not mean a lack of dedication. In fact, the opposite could be said.

I don't find training to be a low priority at all. Just a lower one. Staying alive is much higher.

I DO have the dedication and I have earned my rank both here and in the Air Force. They can sometimes make allowances for my life. But the differences between the AF and TotJO is the first pays me in the money I need to take care of those basic needs. Will you pay me to train at your Temple? If no, then you can't compare them.

Good Morning Novice Anison,

If you will please forgive my informality the following is my unfiltered thoughts on your latest post, though I (sometimes) take full responsibility for my own actions, it is important to note today is a public holiday for me, and I have been imbibing of the demon drink, so if I overstep my place do not hestitate to realign me.

Now let's dive in

Lucky I've got dual screens, it made responding to this tolerable

It confirms to me that what we are talking about here is of importance and needs more discussion. So I thank you all. Now, let's dive in.

Similar to when you see a bunch of maggots eating a corpse, everyone working together on an important issue!

Mostly I'm busy being a rubbish human, gives me plenty of time to be a pretentious git online and debate things I know nothing about.

Many statements were repeated by many of you. Please read through a thread before responding to it.

That is arguably good manners, but also: No.

There's a few reasons for this - Participation is part of the game, and multiple occurances of an event is important for data analysis.
Occasionally different people put a slightly different spin on a similar tune which can give it a clarity or new understanding.

to Avalonslight:
- First of all, this is one of the more dedicated and thoughtful responses. Thank you.

Yeah, Ava does that sometimes. It actually gets annoying after a while :lol:

1st Quotation:
- It is not the only Jedi Path, very true. I am glad no one is telling me that I have to use this website in order to be a Jedi. They would find that the level of which I can be a.... handful is surprising.

Calm down edgelord, if you don't like something, don't subscribe to it - Don't pay the annual fee just so you've got a line to be difficult on, that's madness.

(incidentally, I have a lifecoach service, if you don't use it, you'll die alone, miserable, unsatisfied and with no achievements worth noting, also you'll have wrinkles, baldness, your car will rust and you'll always lose the caps off pens.)

I am questioning whether it is worth obtaining a rank within TotJO and whether that rank would actually mean anything (repeating myself here again). So it's not a question of what I have to do to get a fancy banner on here. I know what I'd have to do. I'm asking: Is it worth it? Would it actually mean anything?

Rank is possibly a misnomer, I've seen this debated before.
I don't work for Kit, she can't tell me to get her a coffee or wash her car. I just know she's done the IP and Apprenticeship program, (and other stuff I know from just talking to her)

So will rank be worth anything? No mate, you won't get a payrise. It's just a way of keeping track. Don't read much into it.

"...there are plenty here who are guests who are just as much Jedi as those who are ranked as Masters, and in general that is not only recognized by encouraged." This is the fundamental problem with TotJO. That's like saying a guest in the catholic church is just as much a Catholic Christian as the Pope

I'm not a catholic, so I'm reluctant to ponder their practices, but *in general* I assume if you've done the thing with the names and the water and the wafers, you're as welcome in heaven as the pope? There is not like, Heaven Level 2 where just popes go. (I could be completely wrong here)

The point my dear friend was making was that "In practice, there are many with a deep understanding of Jediism/The Force who don't wear any coloured images below their username at this site"

For another example - I have bits of paper saying I have qualifications, but I'm sure there are people out there without those bits of paper, who are none the less better at math than me. It happens.

As I said above a lack of a physical location does diminish the reality of this order. It's easy to dismiss a website, much harder to dismiss Jedi standing in front of you in their own Temple. Also, I made statements about the accessibility you speak of. It is a double sided coin. Please read my original post.

Lack of physical location? You can find my spare room on AirBNB, use the code "jedi" for a discount (Okay, you can't, my point is my house is a temple, and a Jedi lives there)

Do they require you do these things as A JEDI?

As opposed to....?

I drive my car as a Jedi, (it flies), wash my clothes as a Jedi, eat pizza as a Jedi.

(Opposite to Colossus' theory on heroes, I wake up a Jedi, brush my teeth a Jedi...)

You are busy. Welcome to the club. You speak as though this makes you an outlier. I doubt that it does in any of the ranks above Member. But sometimes I seriously question that doubt.

Fortunately, as a member, I am never busy

I have said it before, if time does not allow you to give the amount of dedication that joining the Jedi Order should demand then it is, in my opinion, not for you. If one truly cared about joining a true Jedi Order, they'd make the time. And I think most would if it were a true Jedi Order.

and I have said that if you're not a member of the emergency services, healthcare, or the sex industry, then you have not done enough in support of humanity and you have no business wasting time with Jedi training - Go fulfil those requirements first and then if you can find the time become a Jedi. (Try to work out my tone with THAT one)

5th Quotation:
- I don't need to follow each of you around. It doesn't take that level of research to see the things that I do. If we were all going around "Jedi-ing it up" I would hear about it. Through the news, an article, something. Sure there are some small groups doing small things. At least they are on the right track. But it is not enough. There needs to be more of us doing it more often.

I didn't wear my robes to the fire...it just felt like a bad idea.
Sorry for not getting PR for the Jedi Club.

It shouldn't be just another forum. Unfortunately, for the most part, it has every indication of being just that.

I'm really getting the vibe you want it to be more Catholic. Lots of telling us we've failed in the eyes of sauron, and to kneel and be less shameful, or something. That's not what we do*, on any level, and I don't think anyone will apologise for that.

*Not true, some members here do it They're still welcome to hang out.

First of all, it is my opinion that Jediism could be viewed as the best spirituality the world has ever seen. It allows for diversity and acceptance in many ways that other religions/spiritualities don't for truly poor reasons. It has the bedrock to be one of the best at least, I think we would all agree to that.

*twitch* This...really doesn't work for me.

- Thank you for your statements and views. Some of it was a bit repetitive but I hope I addressed them all in exactly the way you wished.

I don't want to bust your chops, but I don't think Ava was hanging out for your wisdom. (not saying it won't be appreciated like I said, participation is part of the game)

- I will be going through your response using the numerical and bulleted system you have used. Thank you for having a format!

I'm inclined to agree, some sort of stadard needs to be set. Maybe one of our Air Force friends can help us with some military forms and styles

I will say what many have surely assumed by this point. I am not interested in things running smoothly around here. Look where it has gotten us. Relatively nowhere.

Said every first year frontline manager ever.
It's okay, they learn. I train them (I'm not threatening to train you, don't worry, no one is going to pay me to do that)

Exactly, much harder for the one than the many though wouldn't you say? Won't stop me if I am able to gain the means. However, in that case, it will be my Temple. I don't think many of you would be pleased with that based on your current view of me. However, you'd probably be brought to change your mind.

What the hell does this even mean?

"If I get rich I'm going to build a clubhouse, you won't like it."

more power to you mate, no one will hold it against you. (Disney might sue you, they get emotional about the use of their intellectual property) but outside of any legal rights Br John has to TotJO and the Logo, you can do what you want.

demands the respect that we should have.

Please put down any sharp objects you have on your person, thanks.


I'm going to skip ahead a bit, because I'm not even halfway through your repsonses, and some of the same issues keep coming up again.

I will suggest to remember that the replies are not just "to you" - we are all talking to each other as well, so try not to feel attacked or like it's 10-against-1.

I would love an explanation of "*kicks dead horse*".

Some time between becoming a Jedi Master and whatever else you do, take a moment to look up idioms. Some are fascinating and hilarious.

Kicking a dead horse is a variation of beating a dead horse, often used for "continuing a debate beyond the point where it is of any use" or literally "trying to make a dead horse run faster by whipping it"

Sorry if that is hard to swallow but ask one of your superiors in the Air Force if it is ok if you do those things they ask whenever the rest of your life allows (furthermore, that you only do a little bit of it and only if it is accessible online). I guess they win you over with the cash they put in your pocket. Something to think about.

No one works in the Military for the money. It's a crap job.
Duty, Service and Sacrifice is a complex thing, and many people are not up for it, or understand it in different ways.

You'll find a strong Military cohort amongst our members here, there is a strong philosophical bond for them between the nature of their employment and the teachings of TotJO.

Something to think about.

Here's an easy example: Jesus, the Son of God, is a literal plagiarism of the Egyptian god Horus, the Sun God. The words are simply changed around and new names are given.

I completely agree with you! (Of course, I was stunned when I went to the middle east and egypt and couldn't read any of the street signs....)

Many people pray to a god that is truthfully man's arrogant personification of stars and how they move about the "heavens". This means that no one has any right to say that their religion or spirituality is any more truthful than another's. It also debunks the idea that because something is fictional it should not be pursued in a serious way. Christianity has saved (and taken) lives based on fiction. What is more serious than that?

I'm pretty sure that's also pretty much Lesson 1 of the IP.
I'd add it to your journal, shows you've been paying attention

I am not looking to don a uniform if it is indicative of this order. I am looking to don a uniform so that people can see me as not just myself but as a Jedi under a true Jedi Order. That is not what I see here, so I was never and am currently not looking for a uniform.

Emphasis mine -
Yeah, that's what I said




Alright, time for another brewski.

Take care friend, I hope I've not offended you, I sometimes play rough but I try to be sensitive.

I do hope you hang around, strange bedfellows and all that.

Anison wrote: to Luthien:
- I would love an explanation of "*kicks dead horse*".
- I know all of the things you have stated. Not only that but I have heard all of that before. Trust me, everyone, I know I can choose where I want to study Jediism. If I didn't have a choice I wouldn't be criticizing this one.

Oh, that? Just a play on an old saying ("beating a dead horse"). Like, nearly all the responses have hit on what I wrote, but I thought I'd put it in my own words to give a different way to look at it.

So, if you've seen what's out there and chose to come here and criticize, it would seem that you're seeking perfection to close the gap between your vision of what Jediism should be and reality. That's what I get from all that you've written. I mean, could you expect perfection from a group of imperfect people? I feel like I'm repeating someone else's words, here. Yeah, I'm positive it's been said. I may be alone in saying that you gotta put in the work to have a say about the way things are run. My opinion, though. I own that.