The Problems with TotJO

I won't speak about you or your view of the Temple. That opinion is your right as a human. I will tell you about TOTJO. I came here a while back. I wasn't at rock bottom or in a scary place. I had already begun to pull myself back up from hitting bottom. When I found this site and I read the home page I actually teared up a bit. This world can be dark, cruel, and challenging. TOTJO gives me the family and support to keep on keeping on. It also gives me the facilities to improve how I walk my path. Who I am compared to who I used to be is almost like black and white.

I think you could do well here. You're smart and you care deeply. You just need to slow down and listen more than you speak.

You are truly my brother. I couldn't disagree with you more but I recognize the "Zeal" in you. It is that passion that drives us to try to change our world for the better. Changing the Jedi here is just an extension of that internal desire and will. The challenge will be for you and I to quiet our minds and become one with the force, which moves at its own pace and has its own path that we may not think, from our current vantage point, is better even though it is. The Sith* (classic Star Wars Sith) have this problem too where they think their way is the right way and therefore they do not see the inevitable problems it causes. If they do they rationalize them until it doesn't matter. When I first got here my mind was racing with ideas on how to make things better and make it more like a "real" religion if that's what the creators were trying to do. Some of what I was going to suggest was already being done. I just didn't know it.

The other problem is that the desire to change things often involves ego. **I** want **my** ideas to be heard. **I** want to direct the path the Jedi take. This is most often not the person's intention, but rather a subconscious impulse that comes from our ego. I'm usually not driven by ego but when it comes out it comes out in short compressed bursts. We have to control these impulses so that we do not fall to the dark side. This also means recognizing that if I have an issue with the site, it's **my** issue; not necessarily a problem for everyone. For example: I personally think there should be more caution against the Sith/Sith* path and upholding the core tenets of the Jedi philosophy because there are so many ways that we as humans are tempted by power, by things we turn into gods, by things we give our power to, that corrupt us. And, for me, the battle between the Jedi and Sith is mainly one of seduction that turns to corruption that ends in destruction. Even leaving the site, in my opinion, is like Anakin getting upset that he wasn't made a master, and that was part of his fall to the dark side. Of course no one ever thinks they will fall to the dark side. They believe they are always right, even when they're doing something everyone else perceives as wrong. Not everyone on this site shares my concerns and that's my problem; not theirs.

We are all individuals. As individuals we are on different steps in our spiritual journey. You don't have to worry about what people do offline because if they have internalized the teachings and have been changed by them, no one can stop that which is within from affecting their personality and their behavior. As someone who was raised in a major religion I saw plenty of huge churches and missionary programs and community outreach programs. Yes, its wonderful when you can do certain things in the community in an organized way. However, it's not necessary to put one's religion behind it. It other words... there are already organizations in your community who are likely hurting for support and don't care whether you're a Jedi or Jehovah's Witness. Other churches sometimes do these things in such a way that they get the credit and if they don't? will those same members still do the same things? Not necessarily. But often the organizers are the ones who do those same things regardless of the religious affiliation.

Another thing.... One of the "lost gospels" talks about how God is everywhere and it seemed to contradict the pre-eminence of the church. When people organize a man-made institution without the purest of intentions that entire institution becomes corrupt. (See Inquisitions & The Crusades) The human idea is make some big show out of religion. They believe this gives glory to God or whoever they're doing it for. But... is it possible that they were doing it for themselves?? That... it helps their own faith if they can be part of some great big thing with expensive stained glass windows and such? I know this is probably not what you were thinking. However, it could very well evolve into that because other people would be involved and their ideas and yours would have to compromise. Someone might want those expensive windows. Someone else might want those expensive pews. Eventually, you've spent so much money building your megachurches that you have to put ATMs inside just to pay back the bank all the money you borrowed. Yes, the downside to any such building is the price tag it comes with. And then you have to get money from your members or raise money through fundraisers. Either way... this would deter people from joining and would force people in authority to have to focus on the material needs of "the church". And again... this would introduce a lot of materialism which is the bane of most other religions.

If you were out on the street in a Jedi robe, here's what would happen. Let's be honest here. You'd look ridiculous. And onlookers wouldn't be able to get past the humor of what you were wearing in order to take anything you said seriously. So what purpose would it serve? Or would it make **you** feel more like a Jedi? Maybe you would feel more like a jedi while people took the rest of us less seriously. Is that a good trade?

Being a Jedi shouldn't be able feeling like a Jedi. And it shouldn't be a rush to get to the highest level. If you aren't satisfied with the journey only after a few months then the titles mean more to you than they should and it is not the system that should bend... it is US (I'm including myself) that should bend.

Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Spoon boy: There is no spoon.
Neo: There is no spoon?
Spoon boy: Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.

Keyboard warriors or not, if you can plant the seed of a positive thought in someone, that seed could grow into a tree; that tree into a forest. You never know how much good you can do or what your effect on the world will be because no news reporter will chronicle everything you do. It is up to you to see the importance in each interaction, to see your place in the galaxy and in the order, and it is up to you to carry the light to your community in any way shape or form you see fit. In other words, the Jedi Temple isn't the hero in your story. You are. But in order to be ready, you must continue your training and do not stray from the path. Unlike Neo, we can't download Kung Fu into our heads. Becoming a Kung Fu master takes years of training. Being a Jedi master is no different.

May the force be with you always

This community has a lot of problems, real ones, major ones. Happily I can't agree with a single one of the accusations you've levelled at it.

It's true, many have left. Maybe like you they felt unfulfilled with the work done here, maybe they're off doing great deeds and proudly proclaiming themselves Jedi "in the real world". Maybe they left for the opposite reason - they weren't prepared to do even the little which you yourself deem "not enough", maybe they found avoidant excuses for their inability or impatience to complete even the IP. Maybe any number of things took them from this path. I can't speak for them, and neither can you. Likewise, you can't expect your opinion to carry weight against those of people who have devoted many hundreds of hours to their training here, learnt and applied lessons in the real world, become known, respected members of this community, their own communities, and very real Jedi in the lives of those they cross paths with.

Not yet.

Perhaps we don't meet your definition of Jedi. That's OK - we don't have to, but nor do you have to accept it. Do better. Show us. Exceed us. Lead us. Push us onward, raise the bar, demonstrate how poor we are as examples by making such a wonderful example of yourself that we can't argue with it. That will, of course, take more than 6 hours of one lesson: it will require you to do at least as much as the "half-hearted Jedi" you see us as anyway, as the Knights and Masters here. So, if you really seek to improve things here (what other purpose would a Jedi have with such criticism than to build up and improve?), do so. Do better. Keep bringing back what you discover. Show us. Rather than complaining, get going.

There is a reason you keep hearing the answer that "in order to understand the path, one must walk the path": it's the truth.

I wish you luck on your path, friend - wherever it leads.

Why is recognition so important. Why is the idea of people seeing me on the street and knowing I am a Jedi so important. It seems a bit arrogant to me. Not much different than people who proudly proclaim they are Christian and have to bring it up regardless of the situation. And why is a physical temple so important. I see a lot of churches get built, and they do nothing for their community, they are simply monuments to excess. To me there is some degree of humbleness that should go with being a Jedi. They should know it by your actions, not the fact you have a temple, or wear a specific outfit.

Anison wrote: to Kit:
- Overall, I hear the same kind of resignation in your statements that have depressed me to the point of wondering if this order is worth sticking with. That "this is the way things are and it's kinda nice because we don't all have the same time and abilities and on and on". I understand that there are hurdles. I understand that not all would be able to participate in what I am calling for. Clearly, it wouldn't be for them. Unfortunately, those that have the means keep hearing this same kind of rhetoric that you have where it seems like things are fine and the way they are supposed to be. The simple thing is that I disagree entirely with that idea and feel as if I don't combat those ideas and that kind of rhetoric that no one else ever will and therefore nothing will ever improve.

You don't know me very well if you think I'm content with the way things are just because they are the way things are hahaha. Ask around sometime about my work with the IP and being behemoth about changing some of it. I was simply explaining why I will always advocate for an open timeline on the training here.

I have priorities. And to be honest, TotJO is one of the last ones on the list (right above the things that are a nicety and not a priority). Because my priorities all involve the things me and the people depending on me need to live. I have a toddler I care for, I'm the breadwinner of the household. I need to make sure I keep my job (which my hip isn't cooperating for anyways but that's another story) to keep food on our table and a roof over our heads, clean diapers and clothes for the growing one, (and the internets on our computers and in our pockets). Unfortunately that job is one where I work 12 hr shifts in the US Air Force (which can arguably fulfill your being Jedi in life requirement) so my free time is taken up by my daughter, chores, and things I enjoy to try and keep me sane. I'm also fighting with depression and anxiety so there's more time and attention taken up working with them.

I'm doing all these real life things that any Jedi worth their salt is going to focus on taking care of. Because some things are more important than a website and studies. So would that put me in your "5%" of Jedi doing real things? Or do I prove my worth to you by blowing through the training without giving it the proper regard I should to something I find worthwhile doing? Or even 'better', do I prove my worth by setting aside the people that rely on me for their very lives to focus on some online training?

Not to mention that both patience and compassion are values Jedi hold dear. How are we to expect those things of our members when the system isn't designed to support that?

- You make some statements about rank and the processes whereby one achieves them. Again, I am calling for the analysis of these processes. I do no think they are any more indicative of a person's Jedi training than a leveling system in a Call of Duty game (do this do that whenever you want and boom you're level 2). And like with CoD when you turn off the program it means nothing except what little you might take with you. What I am saying is that what we take with us is not enough because we are not doing enough.

Again, you are assuming I don't question the way things work. You seemed not to understand the processes based off of some of your statements so I felt it worth explaining. As I said, it's not a simple XP leveling system.

It's totally up to you to find what you feel works or not, and if this place is worthwhile or not. I'm not one to run around shooshing people, I seriously am here to listen. However, I feel the way you want to rebuild this (mostly the timelines) are rather extreme. Thing is, we all have lives, and although we carry this Temple in our hearts, we can't always be here online. You might be able to get some of the privileged younger crowd into what you are picturing. Free time is, after all, the privilege of the young and better off. The rest of us, however, have priorities in life we're busy caring for. And that, I believe, is more Jedi than any online training can be.

- Some examples include: why/how does a website with a forum and some Admin. have any say in who is a true Jedi and who isn't? Why should time spent watching and reading some good material be the way to make a Jedi? Does a rank, a banner, on this website mean anything except that one has spent a lot of time grinding through some palpable time management and critical thinking skills? Why should I prove my understanding of Jediism and the force through this IP? (keep in mind I am halfway through lesson one of the IP, also keep in mind that alone has taken over 6 hours of my life)

- I answered my own questions after being told numerous unhelpful (and often offensive) things by most and a few constructive criticisms of others: This is the best way there is currently. This lead to a thought that I'm sure many ran into before and many will run into again. Why is this the best way we have? What could be a better way? The answer was obvious to me as it is/was to many. We need to make this more tangible, it needs to migrate from mostly online to mostly offline and be in the real world. But what would be needed to do that?

Hi Anison!

Sorry I’m a bit late to the party :laugh:

I’ve read through most of the posts in this thread, and I can (to a degree) see you’re frustration with some of the responses you are receiving and have received in other threads that you deem to be ‘unhelpful (and often offensive)’. I’m sorry that this has been you’re experience here as I am sure that most people were genuinely trying to be of help to you.

From what I can tell by your OP, a lot of the problems you point out (apart from having a physical temple in the real world) seem to revolve around the belief that TotJO seems to decide ‘who is a true Jedi and who isn’t’. And that raises the question where does it say that that is the case?

Where does it say that this ‘website a forum and some Admin have any say in who is a true Jedi and who isn’t’?

Where does it say that ‘time spent watching and reading some good material’ is ‘the way to make a Jedi’?

I’m not sure why you’re asking ‘Does a rank, a banner, on this website mean anything except that one has spent a lot of time grinding through some palpable time management and critical thinking skills’, when just by reading the FAQ one can see that ‘A Rank is related to the amount of study that has been accomplished’

Where does it say that you need to ‘prove’ your ‘understanding of Jediism and the force through this IP’?


Don’t get me wrong, there are a LOT of things that one could argue is wrong with this community, though that is true of most communities, but I think you’ve misunderstood what TotJO is.

We’re not a bunch of people that are deciding who can and cannot be Jedi,

We’re a bunch of Jedi who are trying to help each other and learn from one and other

Anison wrote: There might be "Members" out there with more knowledge and understanding of Jediism than any of the higher ranking members combined. How would we know? The IP? I doubt it would tell us. I doubt more that that person would even spend their time trying to prove it in the first place. That is what I'm trying to change.

We would know because they put fingers to keyboards and contributed worthwhile information to the forums. Or if they were known on a person-to-person basis, their actions would show themselves the (insert title here) they are.

If they felt this was a worthwhile place to be and they wished to teach, they would commit themselves to the IP, then to an apprenticeship, to be Knighted through our Temple. Then they can turn around and offer their mentorship in a master-apprenticeship relationship.

If they didn't want to go through that, they are more than welcome to spread their wisdom on the forums. Only a fool (that was typed food...I must be hungry! lol) discounts good information just because it's from a low rank, young age, what have you. As I said, there's people all through the ranks that I'll stop and listen to. And there's people all through the ranks I couldn't be bothered to flick popcorn at.

I'd bet I'm more experienced in a variety of things than you. And I bet that you have the same on me. But neither of us would know unless we shared it. I could tell you I'm a 7-level Cyber Transport Systems Craftsman. (which should tell you about my expertise in my career field if you understood our crazy language lol) but I am constantly following 3 and 5 level technicians around who are one to three ranks below me. Why? Because this is a new job for me. I programmed large-scale networks for the last ten years, now I'm working a different program. My Airmen have more knowledge than me, so I learn from them. Because I outrank them and have a higher level of 'skill' in our AFSC means jack squat when a mission needs to fly and they have the powah! (and I don't!)

I'm a part of a few Jedi groups. The two I'm most active in are TotJO, and an offline group California Jedi. I will never make rank in the California Jedi, and that's ok. One of their requirements I'll never be able to meet unless the stars align. But they value me anyways, and I still contribute lessons to their group even without the rank.

*kicks dead horse*

So, you feel like it's not enough and you want it to be better (from your perspective, one might add). Totally okay to feel that way. If you don't feel that this place is enough for you, then get out of it what you can and then pursue more. You don't have to spend your whole Jedi experience at one place; digital or otherwise. Explore everything there is to explore and keep what you intend to keep. Make the journey and share your experiences with us. You feel the potential to grow, within you, so take action and be the Jedi you want to see in the world. For some (maybe?), this is an easy task. For others, it's a highly challenging task. Make of it what you will. It's your journey. It's your story. You are the hero of your story's journey.

Being Jedi is tough . I find it, more and more challenging as the more I learn the more I gain... Um no one else does with me . As we learn on our own at our own pace... ( a gift from the Force it self!) it CAN be an added character adjustment that some give and take at difrent times and at difrent levels. If I ever find myself stag I stir up my pot. If for any reason I.... Me , Carlos , gets stuck well... That's me . As I HAVE learned as as I do learn , it is only me that picks up a book. I blame no one for my own choices any longer . No need , don't like the mildew inside it leaves lol.There are circles here for everything . You can be involved in all of them. Some may, as in life, reap benefits or not. Our choice. My hope is we find what we all seek, when we search for the Force. May you find it where ever you seek it , here , at home on the net or on your front porch! My inbox is open

Anison,

I appreciate your concern. You are absolutely right of course.

We are not a Jedi Order.

We still wouldn't be a Jedi Order if we all gathered offline, fully robed and with a functional lightsaber to fight for peace.

That's because the Jedi Order is a work of fiction, and anything drawing inspiration from it will still never BE it.

Even if an offline version of it met your requirements of what a Jedi Order should be, someone else will come along, as you have now, and point out everything wrong with it.

But, if you can set aside that attachment you seem to have to the title of Jedi, you might be able to appreciate this place for what it is: a community of imperfect, flawed human beings who come together to share their personal hero's journey and make themselves (and by extension those around them) better.

If the Jedi Order you set out to create on your own includes these tools and spirit of self-betterment, then by all means invite me, I'll even wear a robe for you.