The Problems with TotJO

  • Topic Author
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
    Public
6 years 11 months ago #281665 by
The Problems with TotJO was created by
I am concerned about this Order. Here are the problems I see, why I think they are problems, and what I am going to do about them.
Finding the Problems
- When I first came here in January I was just excited to see others who thought of Jediism and the force in a serious way. I saw a place to extend my understanding and interact with other members. The potential was awe inspiring.
- Unfortunately, the "interaction" became provocation when I arose some questions and issues that truly seemed to be suppressed here.
- Some examples include: why/how does a website with a forum and some Admin. have any say in who is a true Jedi and who isn't? Why should time spent watching and reading some good material be the way to make a Jedi? Does a rank, a banner, on this website mean anything except that one has spent a lot of time grinding through some palpable time management and critical thinking skills? Why should I prove my understanding of Jediism and the force through this IP? (keep in mind I am halfway through lesson one of the IP, also keep in mind that alone has taken over 6 hours of my life)
- I answered my own questions after being told numerous unhelpful (and often offensive) things by most and a few constructive criticisms of others: This is the best way there is currently. This lead to a thought that I'm sure many ran into before and many will run into again. Why is this the best way we have? What could be a better way? The answer was obvious to me as it is/was to many. We need to make this more tangible, it needs to migrate from mostly online to mostly offline and be in the real world. But what would be needed to do that?

The Temple Problem
- Of course, I went and read everything I could find about a Temple on this website first. A striking but expected truth was found. It was often brought up by those in the lower ranks and quickly shot down by those in the upper ranks as "impossible". To be clear, they hardly ever used that word but man if they didn't find every synonym and phrase that meant the exact same thing. Being myself, I was not the least bit deterred. In fact, I turned the anger at what I was seeing into pure energy and went to one of the more popular threads concerning the matter and voiced my opinion. Boy did those floodgates open, and not even in a slightly different way.
- I was told many things. I think of the ten's of posts that followed my statements maybe two of them were on my side in the matter. The rest had every reason I had read before as to why it hadn't and wouldn't happen. And yes I understand that them being common reasons means that they are the better ones. But if those are the better ones they aren't particularly convincing or good anyways. Which is why I did not and will not fold on my opinion of the matter. It is possible. It will happen one day. I believe it, and no one's "logical" reasoning will prove myself or any of the others that believe as I do wrong. You'll see one day. When it's standing before you.
- I learned one thing that I should have seen but did not see until a few members pointed it out to me. The unfortunate truth of this order is written on every page of it. Most of the members here like it because of the fact that it is mostly online. It being online is helpful with regards to accessibility but beyond that, the attraction here is the easiness of it all. "Sign up to be a Jedi! Fill out a form and talk about the force!", these are the words of a senior member in a private message to me. However, I hold that opinion now myself. He used a phrase for it, it did and still will offend those that it describes.

The Keyboard Jedi Problem
- The majority of the members of this website are here because the only thing it requires is the ability to think and type. It does not require you show any actual action or dedication. Yes, typing is an action. The time it takes requires some dedication.
- Here's the list of the "dedication": the IP takes a while to complete, after the IP you must find and get a "master", you must go through more steps as an apprentice, then the "master" decides if you deserve the title of "Jedi", s/he does and you're a "Jedi", now you go about becoming a "master", and it goes on. To further prove my point, this can be done at any pace (accessibility or easiness?). I have seen some who have been going through it for years. How is that "dedication"?
- But I get it, you must do some things. But let me ask those that have completed all of it and are a member of the upper ranks, do you really feel like a Jedi? The natural reaction is "yes of course", but I'm asking you to really think about it. Do you really? Have you really earned that title? If you do feel like a Jedi then I'd put all my bets on that you feel that way for reasons other than what you have accomplished on this website.
- I understand that some of the members here actually do go out and do things in the real world as a Jedi. But we all know the truth is that most of us haven't. Those that have inhabit less than 10% of the membership easily, maybe less than 5%.
- The truth is simple and painful I'm sure to those that have spent much time on here: Once you log out, you are no longer a "master", a "Jedi", an "apprentice"... the badge stays on the website and so does the rank. Sure you are more educated. You have earned the knowledge and understanding and intellect that got you your rank here. But you know the truth is that is all you have once you log out. Anything else is from experiences you have had offline. You know that's the truth. Search yourself.

What do I want?
- I am sorry to those that wish it to be true but it takes more to make a Jedi than what is required here. You know it, no one has to tell you that. You just know it. How do I know that you know? It's the very reason some of you have actually gone out and done things as a Jedi in the world. Those that have done that inspire me to do the same and keeps my hope alive that one day there will be a true Jedi Order. I thank you all.
*- Here's a test for those that do not see or understand my problem: Look over at the "Latest Posts". What do you see? Right now I see posts about what we are listening to, workout routines, some journals, favorite quotes from the movies, character analysis from the movies, thoughts on canon, and so on. You see? They aren't talking about making this into something more. They don't care that it's just a website. I do. I want more. I want to talk about those things in person. I want to see you all in a Temple with your robes on. I want to see you in the streets with robes on, teaching and telling them of possibly the best spirituality that the world will ever see. I want more. I want reality for the Jedi Order.

What will I do?
- For the reasons I have stated above, I have decided that I will be pursuing my dreams outside of this website. Unless such a time comes that this website is at the forefront of making Jediism a reality, not just a discussion.
- I will continue to probe these issues on this website. I will not just let it go. The best force for change I have is to get you all talking about this. I'm sure that will bother some, but hey that's part of the fun.
- I will also continue to pursue the IP. Honestly, it will not be with haste. It will be done in times that I have too much time on my hands. And those times are few and becoming fewer. I also realize that my statements will make it nearly impossible for me to find a master if and when I do complete the IP. Honestly (again), I think that is a good thing. If a master does take me s/he will be one of broader horizons and bigger dreams. They will need them if they plan to take me as their apprentice.
- I will continue to share my ideas and dreams with as many people as I can. It may not be me that makes my dreams come true, but by sharing them someone else might.

Conclusion
- My statements here are sure to have a wide effect. I am sure many will be angry or offended. To be expected when you are asking for change and pointing out those that have caused the stagnation. The hope is that this might open the eyes of some to the idea that there should be more than this for Jediism. That we can become more. And that there are others that believe as you do, that it is all possible.
- I may not be the most active member here but I promise I will respond to any response here as well as direct messages sent to me. I will also be signing in primarily to partake in any discussions related to the topics stated above.
- I hope that you all understand that I made this not to blame or aggravate others. I made this to get the discussion going, to present my views and tell you all why I hold them.
- To those of you aggravated at me and saying "Fine then, go away, no one cares". People do care. I will never go away. But you are in luck because I'm done with this post. Peace!

Before responding please keep in mind that I am half-way through lesson one of the IP. Due to this, I may be ignorant of some of the process. I would argue, however, that in the broader sense my statements will still hold true.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Visitor
  • Visitor
    Public
6 years 11 months ago #281667 by
Replied by on topic The Problems with TotJO
TOJO is much more than you think. I have been here for about two years now and I went through the same issue a few weeks ago, but throughout the last couple of years, I noticed that you're not giving us as much credit as you think.

1. These members practice what they learn here outside the Temple to ensure to others that they have proved to earn such rank that was bestowed upon them. This means it may take a few years to understand the concepts and apply it in their own lives instead of saying they know it.
2. You're not giving our higher ranked members who have earned their positions here respectfully enough credit. They go out of their way to be the first ones to welcome us when we start our journey and guide us through troubling times with high amounts of patience and integrity. Without them, this temple wouldn't exist.
3. The higher ranks are not impossible. your mind just clouds your judgement and your not allowing yourself to open your mind to all the possibilities that exist now. I had that problem and I completely understand.
4. Your behavior to me seems a little to high strong and arrogant which is not highly appreciated here at the Temple as much

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Visitor
  • Visitor
    Public
6 years 11 months ago - 6 years 11 months ago #281668 by
Replied by on topic The Problems with TotJO

Anison wrote: Here's a test for those that do not see or understand my problem: Look over at the "Latest Posts". What do you see? Right now I see posts about what we are listening to, workout routines, some journals, favorite quotes from the movies, character analysis from the movies, thoughts on canon, and so on. You see? They aren't talking about making this into something more. They don't care that it's just a website. I do. I want more. I want to talk about those things in person. I want to see you all in a Temple with your robes on. I want to see you in the streets with robes on, teaching and telling them of possibly the best spirituality that the world will ever see. I want more. I want reality for the Jedi Order.


So dedication to an Order and pursuing that which the Jedi strive to be does not make one a Jedi, but they would be more like Jedi if they wore robes?

I took your points seriously up until I read that.

A Jedi is a frame of mind, a way of being, a practise. Every day I go out and do simple acts to make the world around me into a better place. Be that a well placed smile at someone who looks like they need it, or a calming word to diffuse a conflict. This is where I come to learn, meet wonderful like minded people, and just have a good time with friends. Most of my Path lies beyond this Temple, in my everyday life.

Anision wrote: For the reasons I have stated above, I have decided that I will be pursuing my dreams outside of this website. Unless such a time comes that this website is at the forefront of making Jediism a reality, not just a discussion.


This is a young faith, it has to start somewhere. We are lucky to have this medium to become more and to find support for our Path. The Christian faith did not become a massive movement within it's first decade, and I find it unfair to expect the same of Jediism.

EDIT: If you want change, go through the program. Make something of yourself here, and perhaps one day you can set into motion the discussions to see these changes. For now, you must learn.
Last edit: 6 years 11 months ago by .

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Topic Author
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
    Public
6 years 11 months ago - 6 years 11 months ago #281669 by
Replied by on topic The Problems with TotJO
to peace:

Confused by a few parts of your first line but am grateful someone who struggled with similar issues took the time to show me their view.

1. My initial post makes a statement about those you are referring to. I respect them more than anyone else on this website. They are bringing Jediism to the world in a real way and that is what I want.
2. My entire point is based on how they have achieved such a rank and why it is meaningful. So I am actually questioning whether their rank should be respected at all and if so why. Please read the initial post again.
3. I don't think I ever said the higher ranks were impossible. I have no doubts that if I thought the higher ranks on this website were worth it that I would become the highest rank possible. My problem is not with the difficulty. If anything it is with the lack of difficulty.
4. My behavior has not been appreciated since day one. I tend to challenge things that most don't want to be challenged. So I agree completely with this statement, however, I don't think my behavior is the problem.
Last edit: 6 years 11 months ago by . Reason: Specifying who I am addressing

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
6 years 11 months ago - 6 years 11 months ago #281670 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic The Problems with TotJO
whats wrong with the music thread? have you seen Mademoiselle Noir? its beautiful and mournful...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oNGq16nHr-Q

one of the earliest jedi lessons -not the IP, the social lessons, the ones we learn from interacting with one another- is that its up to you to be a jedi, its not up to the community to turn you in to one

in fact, its not our place to turn anyone into anything, except for ourselves- not imposing our own personal standards on each other is kind of a core tradition here

the community produces and shares all of the information you need, but there are no jedi police enforcing any of it

this place is worthwhile if you want it to be

a temple would be cool
when youve got a real solution tothat let me know, i will help if i can

People are complicated.
Last edit: 6 years 11 months ago by OB1Shinobi.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Eleven, rugadd, Kobos, ,

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
6 years 11 months ago #281671 by Kit
Replied by Kit on topic The Problems with TotJO
The IP is built around the lowest common denominator. It's suppose to be foundation work to inspire thought and new ways of thinking 'for the masses'. It is also under continuous review and reworking, so if you have specific input on what you'd like to see in the IP, that would be welcome.

For some of us, it takes years to complete the IP. It took me three years to make Knight. But in that time, I was deployed overseas, moved half way across the US, carried and gave birth to a baby, fired my 'mother', and those are the highlights haha. I was busy trying to keep my life together, and honestly, that's more important than training. Training IS important, it helps keep our lives together but there are priorities :) that's why there's no time limit set on the IP or the Apprenticeship.

I know some Knights require volunteer work, if that fits your "going out and doing things" ;) I personally don't because I know what it's like to be voluntold for things. Sure you do something, but your heart isn't in the right place. You're just checking a box. So I won't be one to require such a thing of mine. I'll absolutely suggest it and even grant credit for it though.

Yeah you get your Keyboard Warriors, but unfortunately this is the medium we have to communicate with right now. So it is what it is. There's been threads started about the work we do as Jedi (usually not in robes lol) and RAKs and the sort, but they tend to get buried sometimes. A lot of folks don't care to toot their own horn. And honestly, I couldn't care less about what anyone else does as far as volunteer/goodly works. I like hearing about them but honestly, I haven't had time to do a breath of volunteer work in at least four months. Those pesky priority things ;) so me being a Jedi isn't so much about what I'm doing in robes for the good of the world, it's about me being a better person, getting over my history and current issues, and taking care of the things and people I'm responsible for. I sorely miss doing the work I did here and I hope there's an end to this part of my life and soon, but until then, I gotta keep my head above water (while it more and more looks like a better idea just to breathe it in) while I do my best to help keep others' above water too.

If you have any spare floaties I'll gladly accept them!

Just my bit. For better or worse. I don't mean to knock you down, I'm listening :) Truly I am, but I just wanted to offer a bit of explanations for some of the things. (and you won't find me in robes again except for Cosplay XD ) I guess my TL;DR is "you gotta start working on you first, and that's what we're here to help with"
The following user(s) said Thank You: Eleven, rugadd, Alexandre Orion, Avalon, Cyan Sarden, OB1Shinobi and 5 other people also said thanks.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
6 years 11 months ago #281672 by Rosalyn J
Replied by Rosalyn J on topic The Problems with TotJO
Thanks for your words. Good luck with your plans.

Pax Per Ministerium
[img



The following user(s) said Thank You: Eleven, rugadd, Cyan Sarden, Kobos,

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
6 years 11 months ago - 6 years 11 months ago #281673 by Kit
Replied by Kit on topic The Problems with TotJO

Anison wrote: 2. My entire point is based on how they have achieved such a rank and why it is meaningful. So I am actually questioning whether their rank should be respected at all and if so why.



With lessons lessons and more lessons. In brief, both he Training Master and the Council needs to approve of an Apprentice before they earn Knighthood. It's a manner of both substance and personal growth. Not everyone makes it to Knight, and not for a lack of lessons.

Coming from a military background, rank should be respected when orders are given, but that doesn't mean you have to respect the individual. (this also doesn't mean that because someone has rank, that they're always right) I'll admit, there are guests here who I respect worlds more than some Knights. But they each earned their reputation with me. And since we (Knights) don't give much in the way of orders here to anyone but our apprentices, that doesn't matter much either haha. Sometimes we'll wade into an argument and it'd be nice for folks to take a pause there but there's no rules about it *shrug*
Last edit: 6 years 11 months ago by Kit. Reason: minor word change
The following user(s) said Thank You: Eleven, Avalon, Kobos,

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Topic Author
  • Visitor
  • Visitor
    Public
6 years 11 months ago #281674 by
Replied by on topic The Problems with TotJO
to Arisaig:

Arisaig wrote: So dedication to an Order and pursuing that which the Jedi strive to be does not make one a Jedi, but they would be more like Jedi if they wore robes?


-My posts point is to raise the fundamental questions. Why be dedicated to this Order? What do the Jedi strive to be? If you are getting that answer from this site then what makes that what we ought to strive to be?
-And the point behind wearing robes in public is that it takes a kind of courage and ownership that I AM a Jedi and I want the world to see me as such. I think that courage and ownership, generally, is lacking here. Admittedly it is a problem I face myself. But I can say I am working on it and not just resigning to a persona on a website, which is what most have done.
- If this is where you lost your consideration for my points then I understand. This is where I make the bold statement that usually loses people. Not a surprise.

Arisaig wrote: A Jedi is a frame of mind, a way of being, a practice. Every day I go out and do simple acts to make the world around me into a better place. Be that a well-placed smile at someone who looks like they need it, or a calming word to diffuse a conflict. This is where I come to learn, meet wonderful like-minded people, and just have a good time with friends. Most of my Path lies beyond this Temple, in my everyday life.


- More of what I've heard before. "Being a Jedi isn't about proclaiming you are it's about the little things blah blah blah." NO! Being a Jedi ought to be about being a Jedi totally unapologetically and in broad daylight. What you say that you are doing is great and please keep doing those things at least. I just wish those people could see it as a Jedi doing them so that they could relate Jediism to your actions and not simply yourself. Having said that I'm glad that at least you as yourself are doing them.

Arisaig wrote: This is a young faith, it has to start somewhere. We are lucky to have this medium to become more and to find support for our Path. The Christian faith did not become a massive movement within its first decade, and I find it unfair to expect the same of Jediism.


- Seriously, there must be a handbook that's being passed around. I have heard this all before. It is young but I think it's core principles alone would recruit more people more quickly than any other religion before it if only it were out in the light. You can use this website as a perfect example of what I mean. Though, there would be a disparity between those that are ok with being known as a Jedi and those that would rather stay in the safer and easier realm of anonymity.

Arisaig wrote: EDIT: If you want change, go through the program. Make something of yourself here, and perhaps one day you can set into motion the discussions to see these changes. For now, you must learn.


- Seriously becoming afraid that you are all bots playing a trick on me. The. Same. Things. I. Have. Heard. Before. Why should I go through the very program that I want to change? Why should I make something of myself here if here has made nothing of itself? I can make those discussions now to the people that I am trying to reach. I have spent all my life learning. I will spend the rest of it learning. But it sounds like you are trying to dismiss me to my bedroom like a child when you say that. So, for now, I think I will continue to challenge what is being learned.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
6 years 11 months ago #281675 by Rosalyn J
Replied by Rosalyn J on topic The Problems with TotJO

But I can say I am working on it and not just resigning to a persona on a website, which is what most have done.


My question is, how do you know what others have done?

Pax Per Ministerium
[img



The following user(s) said Thank You: Eleven, rugadd, Alexandre Orion, Kit, Avalon, Cyan Sarden and 3 other people also said thanks.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Moderators: ZerokevlarVerheilenChaotishRabeRiniTavi