The Problems with TotJO

5. With how you're acting now, your behavior, poor judgement and ill-tempered has already made knighthood almost impossible for you if you keep acting this way. A knight always tells the truth and never acts rash.
6. This is the real Jedi Order. By you saying it's not, you are making our community weaker and destroying the balance our current members have already created and strengthened.

Best Advice: Think before you act or post because it may make some of the members here vary sad, angry or disappointed.

to OB1Shinobi:

OB1Shinobi wrote: a temple would be cool...when you've got a real solution to that let me know, I will help if I can

-First of all, I found it insightful how much I had to go through and grammatically fix this simple statement (made sure to leave out some corrections that might change the perception of the statement). When all the power that one can hold on this website is in what they post I think it is important to note what they post and how they post it. I think the level of care put forth in your post is indicative of how much you care about these issues. So I find myself wondering what the use of addressing this point from you might be.... I've decided! It's for others reading this.
- I have addressed a solution to Rosalyn who I will soon be addressing. It's simple, either an individual with the means and the dedication or a group with crowdfunding capabilities. Now, which is TotJO?...

to Kit:
- Overall, I hear the same kind of resignation in your statements that have depressed me to the point of wondering if this order is worth sticking with. That "this is the way things are and it's kinda nice because we don't all have the same time and abilities and on and on". I understand that there are hurdles. I understand that not all would be able to participate in what I am calling for. Clearly, it wouldn't be for them. Unfortunately, those that have the means keep hearing this same kind of rhetoric that you have where it seems like things are fine and the way they are supposed to be. The simple thing is that I disagree entirely with that idea and feel as if I don't combat those ideas and that kind of rhetoric that no one else ever will and therefore nothing will ever improve.
- You make some statements about rank and the processes whereby one achieves them. Again, I am calling for the analysis of these processes. I do no think they are any more indicative of a person's Jedi training than a leveling system in a Call of Duty game (do this do that whenever you want and boom you're level 2). And like with CoD when you turn off the program it means nothing except what little you might take with you. What I am saying is that what we take with us is not enough because we are not doing enough.

to Rosalyn:
- Ah, a familiar face. I am happy to see that you are still around. Even happier that you still challenge me, it is a part of what little I gain here. Thank you.
- In your first post, it seems as though you are saying, in other words, what I said in my initial post "Fine then, go away, no one cares". As I stated, I'll still be around.

Rosalyn wrote: My question is, how do you know what others have done?

- I looked. If you look through the list of those that are members here it's largely inactive accounts with a few posts. There's a disparity in what you see though because what you see most often are those that regularly log in. It follows my statement that truly active Jedi account for maybe 5% of the population here. I am sure you fit that fraction of people that are most active. Unfortunately, the majority is definitely inactive in the specific definition of that word. It doesn't take special means to figure that out. Just some surfing through this site.

I get that it can be a bit frustrating seeing a bunch of inactive accounts.

I think this is true of any group, religious or otherwise. They may be offline, face to face, but they are still plagued with the same issue.

The issue is that people are really excited at first, but that excitement caries them just so far. Once the excitement wears off, what is required is grit and a true understanding of why you are doing what you are doing.

If you have that it wont matter whether you are a guest or a master. If you don't have that it won't matter that you are a master.

But, I think its human nature for people to be excited by the new and different. Your suggestions may bring people in, but what's your guarantee that they will stay.

Further, you have said that you looked around the site and saw a bunch of inactive accounts, but in your first post (correct me if I'm wrong) you almost seemed to scoff at those who post online. I'm a little confused.

judge me by my grammar do you?

to peace:

5. With how you're acting now, your behavior, poor judgment and ill-tempered has already made knighthood almost impossible for you if you keep acting this way. A knight always tells the truth and never acts rash.

- To keep things short I am going to repeat myself yet again. I am not sure I desire knighthood within this Order. So as I stated in my initial post either I will not be able to achieve rank because I am challenging it or I will attract another such individual who shares my views and will take me. Poor guy/girl may be out of luck anyways and get shot down by an even higher ranking member who wishes to keep me suppressed. I am telling my truth and I do not view my behavior as "rash". I am, however, amazed at your ability to induce things about me based on a post on a website. My temper is fine. My judgment? Spot on from where I sit. Maybe you are describing yourself. What do they call it?.....Projecting.

This is the real Jedi Order. By you saying it's not, you are making our community weaker and destroying the balance our current members have already created and strengthened.

- First of all the only difference between this Jedi Order and one I might create tomorrow is that this one has the systems and members that I would not. So again, analyze what you say. What you mean is this is your real Jedi Order. It isn't mine, but maybe one day.
- By challenging it I think over all the responses to my challenge make it stronger. This is unfortunate for me in my pursuit of trying to figure out how to change it for the better, but for one such as yourself who holds it as "the real Jedi Order" it is very much beneficial. I think overall my challenges have the opposite effect of what I desire. That is why, when I can, I respond so fervently.

Best Advice: Think before you act or post because it may make some of the members here very sad, angry or disappointed.

- I think very much before I act or post. I find it difficult to find where you are getting the implication that I don't. However, I can not control how people respond to what I say. I can only control what I say. I think overall I do an excellent job of that. I choose to say the important things. Unfortunately, they can have an adverse effect on those that have become accustomed to the way things are. I can not help this. All I have is the words on this screen. It is another one of the reasons I wish for there to be a physical place for us to go and discuss these things. That way you could see my attitude in person when I talk about all of this. I do not mean for it to come off in a way that hurts anyone. But since this is just words on a screen, I can not change how one might read them.

First of all, thank you for your comments, because even if there is someone that don't agree, I sense that your intention is good, you are being proactive, positive, not giving up on your thoughts and many other thinks that we know are skills of a Jedi. I would want to agree in principle with you and share my experience going through the IP and the apprenticeship, this will be mixed with some clarification points that I would like to make:
- The training during the apprenticeship is not to become a Jedi but to become a Jedi Knight, the difference for me is important and makes a lot of sense, because we are establishing and following religion here, and this should not be something put into question is someone is Jedi or not, a Jedi is someone that believes in the force, even if he does not use it or experiences it completely. In competition, the different ranks and tags used here, form guest, initiate, novice, apprentice knight, etc. imply different levels of commitment.
- It is important to apply everything that is on our doctrine in the real world, and that is where I agree with you, there are many activities that can help us to reflect that type of commitment, but as you mentioned there are always areas of opportunity where we should work. In some areas, there are Churches and "physical" communities that gather and make sure to extentd of philosophy to the external world, unfortunately due to geographic and physical limitations not everyone is able to attend to those, so that is why we have the IP and apprenticeship programs online, but as you go through them you find out that they require real action and commitment with your community and environment and not only the online community. Obviously it depends on the master that teaches you, but it seems they have a common approach to make sure this goes deeper into the personal level and not only online
- Obviously, this is not a perfect process so there are many improvements to be made, many ideas come to my mind, like:
-Require some sort of social service to be ordered Knight
-Require the clergy seminar students to write sermons (which is implemented in some way) and to create physical activities and/or churches
-To complement any sort of “competence maintenance” process, to make sure people that have a rank are still active online and offline
Obviously, this has many logistic complications and changes that must be made. But again, we are here to learn, to share and to collaborate into building this Temple, for the temple is not the online site, it is the community conformed by all of us that creates the Temple.

What I am sure of is that all the people what have gone through the different processes deserve their degree and are committed with the Temple, with the community and their own personal communities.

Let us keep on working and never give up.

to OB1Shinobi:
- See something told me I was wasting my time responding to you. Of course, I judge you based on your grammar. It is all that I have to judge you on. You clearly do not take this post seriously. You, and people like you, are the specific problem with this Order. I am not going to respond if you do. Have a good evening.

to Rosalyn:
- What if that excitement dissipates because they are not interested in becoming a Jedi on a website? What if that excitement would take them through the doors of a real temple? To every in person Jedi meeting? We are likely losing more than we gain due to the fact that this is a website and not an actual Temple.
- You said: "If you have that it won't matter whether you are a guest or a master. If you don't have that it won't matter that you are a master."
- Could not and did not put it in better words myself. There is something missing in the way we decide who deserves what rank. There might be "Members" out there with more knowledge and understanding of Jediism than any of the higher ranking members combined. How would we know? The IP? I doubt it would tell us. I doubt more that that person would even spend their time trying to prove it in the first place. That is what I'm trying to change.

to Pcoronaf:
- So far this is my favorite response. Thank you for taking the time to make such a well-rounded one.
- I will be repeating myself a bit here, but hey I have been doing that for some time now. I think it's hard to judge true commitment based on whether someone will log on and go through the IP. From what I have seen it mostly challenges time commitment and critical thinking. I want more to be challenged in a person that is aspiring to become a Jedi. Things like: Would they have the world see themselves as a Jedi? Would they do work in the world in the name of the Jedi? What kind of work would they do and how? I think these are better questions of commitment to a true Jedi Order.
- All of your ideas for improvement are spot on as to what I'm looking for. However, I do not think to add them to an Order that is built online would do much good. Those requirements are better suited for an "in the flesh" Jedi Order.

I can not stress how much I enjoy responding to you all and hearing your views on this matter. Unfortunately, I must go make myself some dinner and take care of some other tedious things. If I do not get back on and respond tonight I will try to tomorrow. Thanks again everyone.

- Some examples include: why/how does a website with a forum and some Admin. have any say in who is a true Jedi and who isn't? Why should time spent watching and reading some good material be the way to make a Jedi? Does a rank, a banner, on this website mean anything except that one has spent a lot of time grinding through some palpable time management and critical thinking skills? Why should I prove my understanding of Jediism and the force through this IP? (keep in mind I am halfway through lesson one of the IP, also keep in mind that alone has taken over 6 hours of my life)

TOTJO does not and has never claimed to be the only "Jedi path". No one here will tell you that you have to do this IP, this program, in order to be a Jedi. They will tell you, however, that if you wish you obtain any rank within TOTJO itself, then yes, you do. But there are plenty here who are guests, who are just as much of Jedi as those who are ranked as Masters, and in general that is not only recognized but encouraged. Not only that, but there are plenty of members who can point you towards other online communities that might have a lesson structure closer to your liking and opinion of what "Jedi" is... No one will stop you from seeking them out.

- We need to make this more tangible, it needs to migrate from mostly online to mostly offline and be in the real world. But what would be needed to do that?

What makes you sake it's not tangible and not "in the real world"? The lessons people here are taken into their real life and applied on a daily basis. Our lack of a physical location doesn't diminish that, and (at least in my opinion) that's more important than any physical location could ever be.

- The majority of the members of this website are here because the only thing it requires is the ability to think and type. It does not require you show any actual action or dedication. Yes, typing is an action. The time it takes requires some dedication.

False. There are plenty of apprentices and apprentice lessons which require you to go out and do something in the real world. Some masters require their apprentices to take up volunteerism for a set period of time, others encourage physical development, most require some level of dedicated meditation at the very least. Further....

- Here's the list of the "dedication": the IP takes a while to complete, after the IP you must find and get a "master", you must go through more steps as an apprentice, then the "master" decides if you deserve the title of "Jedi", s/he does and you're a "Jedi", now you go about becoming a "master", and it goes on. To further prove my point, this can be done at any pace (accessibility or easiness?). I have seen some who have been going through it for years. How is that "dedication"?

I'll speak purely to my training master and my relationship right now. My "dedication" at the moment is devoted to a dual major that I'm taking a full load of credits for, working over part time, and helping one parent take care of the other disabled parent. He knew this well before I started my apprenticeship with him, and as a result, he as been more than willing to work with me on the time it takes me to get to my apprentice lessons. Because being a Jedi isn't about just punching those lessons out. It's a lesson itself in work-life balance. Further, going through an apprenticeship isn't about going through the steps. If you get a good training master, they not only know how to recognize what you need to work on and what sorts of lessons might be beneficial to you, they also know and recognize how to encourage you through the rest of your life. It goes far beyond "here do this lesson"... it's a true mentor-mentoree relationship. And frankly, there have been and will continue to be apprentices who have gone through the steps of finishing the lessons, but who are still apprentices, because it's recognized that there's still growing they need to do as individuals prior to letting them teach others. And in the end, that's what becoming a Knight is about - self development and improvement. There's no better way to show dedication to your self improvement than by continuing to improve yourself, no matter how long it takes you to "go through the steps"...

- I understand that some of the members here actually do go out and do things in the real world as a Jedi. But we all know the truth is that most of us haven't.

How do you know? Really? Do you follow each and every one of us around every day and see how we're "Jedi-ing it up"?

- The truth is simple and painful I'm sure to those that have spent much time on here: Once you log out, you are no longer a "master", a "Jedi", an "apprentice"... the badge stays on the website and so does the rank.

Again, false. And again, I imagine most would agree with me that it's false. I'm not saying that there aren't those who don't go "oh it's just an online gig", but the vast majority of us treat it as a "life commitment"... meaning we apply it to all aspects of our lives. I don't stop being an apprentice just because I log off. Maitre Alexandre, Wescli, Brenna, and the rest of the council don't stop being knights of varying degrees... But again, that goes back to the whole "how do you know we're not Jedi-ing it up away from the site" thing.

- Here's a test for those that do not see or understand my problem: Look over at the "Latest Posts". What do you see?

Let's see... I see a support group for people who are trying to improve themselves... actually multiple, at varying levels of commitment time and what's being committed to, a knighting announcement, multiple IP posts, multiple apprenticeship posts, people using the safety of the site to express the personal hardships that they're presently enduring.... Oh, yeah. That all goes into the whole being a Jedi is about improving self thing but...

favorite quotes from the movies, character analysis from the movies, thoughts on canon, and so on.

So people connecting on a personal level of mutual enjoyments is... unJedi?

I want to see you in the streets with robes on, teaching and telling them of possibly the best spirituality that the world will ever see.

Not going to happen purely because we recognize that each person's spirituality is going to be different and there is no such thing as "the best spirituality the world will ever see." It's entirely personal. I'm not going to go up to the Christian who lives in the unit below me and tell her her spirituality isn't good enough. That's wrong.

I want reality for the Jedi Order.

Again, how do you know we're not Jedi-ing it up off screen?

What will I do?

Well my hope is that you'll take the time to look over what some of our responses are going to say and see that it's not quite so simplistic or straight forward as it appears to be. Of course, you can entirely diss the process and walk away from it and not have anything more to do with how we do things, and that's entirely you're prerogative. I just hope you take away the caution that, you can't really say that we're doing it the wrong way or that it's not Jedi enough, because you only see not only a small portion of the site, but also a small portion of each of our lives. You might find it a more worthwhile and time productive exercise to concern yourself with how you approach your Jedi path, than with how the rest of us approach ours. But whatever the case may be, I wish you luck on figuring out what that path is for you.

Some responses:

1. Problems with the Order
-this post is pretty provocative for someone concerned about provocation in the forums.
-the council/admin doesn't decide who is a "true Jedi." They decide rank within this Temple and keep things generally running smoothly around here
-there is plenty of "Jedi-ing" in the outside world. Just because your experience hasn't exposed you to it, does't mean it isn't there. I'm pretty sure that if you spoke to other Jedi here, they'd be happy to tell you how they use TotJO teachings outside this website.

2. The Temple
-The upper ranks are the ones that deal with finances and global presence of TotJO. I'd trust their judgement on the realities of a physical Temple.
-If a member wants to build their own temple, they are free to do so.
-I'm sure plenty of members would LOVE to have a Temple, but *for now* there are just too many potential issues to make this dream into a reality

3. Keyboard Jedi
-Apprentices are generally required to show "action and dedication" as part of their training. This usually includes "real world" things.
-We're a small, but global organization - the internet allows us to connect in a meaningful way despite distance. There is power in that.
-Since TotJO is not *only* an online organization, neither is rank restricted to this forum.

4. What you want
-We are not an evangelistic organization, so there is no need to be "out on the streets"
-There are plenty of ways to teach our values without walking around in robes
-Only you can make Jediism a reality in your own life. What's stopping you?

5. What you will do
-Be aware that stubbornly bringing up the same issues again and again will not endear you to the community.
-Be aware that saying you're unlikely to find a Master with "broader horizons and bigger dreams" will not endear you to the Knights/potential Masters
-make your own dreams come true. If you wait for someone else to fulfil them, you'll be waiting a VERY long time.

Other thoughts:
-being active in the community is what will help you understand TotJO, and the people/values we share.
-you are very new here and have barely started into the teachings. You are making a lot of assumptions about the Council, Temple members, and teaching program. I suggest you make less broad statements and have more one-on-one discussion about your concerns. You may find that a lot of your concerns are unfounded.
-Keep dreaming, but remember that you can make Jediism real in your life. Your faith shouldn't depend on the actions of others.

Anison

Are you aware there are offline orders/chapters?
I'm a part of the california one.

Further, I have heard similar arguments to the one you made in your last response to me in every single group I have been a part of, Jedi or not.

"Would they have the world see themselves as a Jedi? Would they do work in the world in the name of the Jedi? What kind of work would they do and how? I think these are better questions of commitment to a true Jedi Order."

This argument is made in Christiandom too. Using different words of course. Unfortunately, what it comes to mean is "I don't want to do what's set before me. I want to do something else, and I already know what that something is."

I know better than to think you are saying that. So what are you saying?

Also, you haven't cleared up my confusion about the inactive members.