The Problems with TotJO

- I looked. If you look through the list of those that are members here it's largely inactive accounts with a few posts. There's a disparity in what you see though because what you see most often are those that regularly log in. It follows my statement that truly active Jedi account for maybe 5% of the population here. I am sure you fit that fraction of people that are most active. Unfortunately, the majority is definitely inactive in the specific definition of that word. It doesn't take special means to figure that out. Just some surfing through this site.

1 - You're only seeing what's being posted in the boards you have access to. To my knowledge, based on your current rank, that means you're not seeing Apprenticeship posts, Seminarian posts, Knight posts, youth member posts, or admin/council posts. That's a lot.

2 - You've actually caught yourself in a bit of a catch 22 here.... You don't want keyboard Jedi, but... if they're not posting enough to your standards, then they're not dedicated enough and are "inactive"... See the conundrum you've put yourself in there? Have you considered the lack of posting is due to the fact that they're busy being Jedi "in the real world"?

Also, as a whole...

Please don't misunderstand our responses. We don't want to discourage you from TOTJO or achieving what you want on a Jedi path. But that doesn't discount the fact that while the way TOTJO works may not be the best way for you, that also does not mean that it's incorrect or broken. For those of us who are here and focus on our paths here, TOTJO does what we need it to.

And don't get me wrong... a physical temple would be pretty cool. But also pretty impractical. Which is why it really hasn't happened. That said, I don't really want TOTJO to become the next Christian Church either, and to that end, I personally see it as unnecessary to have a physical tempe. Ros (I think it was) was right though, there are plenty of offline chapters of varying levels of activity and 'styles' so to speak and one of them might work best for you.

Anison wrote: - All of your ideas for improvement are spot on as to what I'm looking for. However, I do not think to add them to an Order that is built online would do much good. Those requirements are better suited for an "in the flesh" Jedi Order.

I can not stress how much I enjoy responding to you all and hearing your views on this matter. Unfortunately, I must go make myself some dinner and take care of some other tedious things. If I do not get back on and respond tonight I will try to tomorrow. Thanks again everyone.

Why would we should make a separation between the "in the flesh" Jedi Order and the Temple, we are a community, made of people "flesh and bone", any involved in the local chapters/churches, many involved in their community social work, so I see no difference. If we create separation we are just dissolving the efforts and lowering the possible impact.

I read you are from Birmingham, Alabama in the USA. There is a census of jedi in different part of the world and particularly in some cities in the USA, I recommend you to search the forum for it and contact some of the people in your area.

Best regards

respond or not at your discretion- this all seems very important to you, but youre right, it isnt important to me

i spoke to you reasonably but you miss the forest for the trees- it looks to me like someone fed you after midnight and now youve turned into a grumpy gremlin.

statistically, youll probably be gone in a few months anyway, so why should it be important to me or to anyone besides you?

you dont understand the community you are critiquing, you dont know anything about the people you are talking to, and your opinion does not matter

youre being very critical -which is fine, but youre doing it in a way that is highly ignorant and that comes across as pretty insulting, and yet people are still attempting to engage you reasonably; that itself should get your attention

you want to be challenged as a person?
ok, great, go do something challenging!
what are your life accomplishments so far?
what is your career? what are your personal commitments? what have you suffered and who have you saved? what have you done with your own life up to this point, and what are are you doing with it now; bemoaning the internet for not bestowing upon you the sense of purpose and belonging that youre looking for?

no one here can provide you with whatever it is that you think your life is supposed to be; not singly, not collectively.
and speaking for myself i surely dont need you or any other internet gremlins trying to tell me what you think mine is supposed to be either

if you want to follow the program then do it

if you dont, dont

but totjo has been here for years, and trying to step up and take control of because it doesnt seem to be what you are looking for is silly

want a temple? build one
want robes?
wear them
this place is what this place is, jt has a lot to offer and you are very much welcome to be here, but jf its not what youre searching for then there is no shame in moving on

it needs to migrate from mostly online to mostly offline and be in the real world. But what would be needed to do that?

Ever heard of a Jedi Gathering? Or perhaps Jedi Chapters?

Jediism in general IS actually moving offline. The problem is - It's not as easy as simply declairing it must be so.

Most of the members here like it because of the fact that it is mostly online.

Like it or not. That is how the Jediism community has been for 20 year. You yourself answer the reason's why "It being online is helpful with regards to accessibility" The internet is how we find eachother, communicate with each other, share information and ideas with eachother. You yourself found this place....Online. If you wanted something to be offline....why are you not out there in your hometown community joining your hometown community groups and clubs? You came online and found online answers.

The majority of the members of this website are here because the only thing it requires is the ability to think and type.

See....now you are doing what you are pissed off about everyone else is doing....Judging.

I am not here because it is easy. On the contrary. Quite the opposet. I am here because I myself am a big part of Offline Jedi Gatherings and Training and wish to encourage and engage with others to do the same......Productivly. Which let me tell you....is far from easy.

I understand that some of the members here actually do go out and do things in the real world as a Jedi. But we all know the truth is that most of us haven't.

You, myself, others....can't control what other people do with their lives. But your free to try.....I will advice however to tone down your judgments if you hope for anyone to follow your lead.

I do. I want more. I want to talk about those things in person.

Does that mean we will be seeing you at the next gathering?

I will continue to probe these issues on this website. I will not just let it go.

Good. Does that mean we will be seeing more quality posts from you? Or just more judgment and blaming? Id love to see good posts....not judgy ones....


Anyways. Hope to see you at the gathering doing things in real life with us.

Anison, you are not the first person to come to the TOTJO and point these things out. You will certainly not be the last. Like all of them, you show up thinking you are here to teach rather than learn. Rather than be challenged, you are here to challenge. As with these many who have come and gone, you have a certain image in your mind of what you think it means to be a Jedi - monastic individuals living in temples training in martial arts and whatnot while wearing robes to display how "Jedi" we are. Not only that, but you think we should be actively engaged in evangelical recruitment from a perceived sense of superiority. The way in which you choose to react rather than learn and observe is a disservice to yourself, and your flippant disregard for the IP is a further disservice because you're not really interested in learning and growing because you think you already know it all.

The IP can help you, and you can get out two or three times more from it than you invest into it. Yet you are annoyed at a mere six hour investment, as though you've gotten nothing out of it? I feel bad that you've got so little interest in the system here. With very little doubt, you'll be burned out in a month. Unless you realize the path you're on is one of folly, and change your attitude from teacher to student then I don't foresee a future here for you. For one who knows little to nothing of the ways of a group, you seem disproportionately certain that your efforts will change it.

First off, you've made the mistake in assuming the TOTJO is nothing more than a mere website, and that is understandable as you have not been here nor interacted with the "5%" as you so aptly described long enough to realize the TOTJO is not the website, but the people who come here every day and contribute their time and energy to make the TOTJO what it is...

I do not require wearing robes out in the open, or some badge (we have those available btw) in hopes of being recognised and acknowledged by the public, my path does not require the validation of strangers to substantiate it. Nor does it make me more (or less) of a Jedi as a result. That's what your argument seems to based upon, a lack of validation...

You have on several accounts made the statement concerning what the reader "knows." Well here's what I know...

Five years ago I came here, at the end of my proverbial rope. I was in serious sad shape. Mentally a psychological mess. I learned something here I'd not been shown anywhere else, genuine Compassion, and later on, Faith. It has since changed my life for the better, and has continued to assist me in developing an inner morale compass as I lacked one before I started an account. I am a Jedi, and I do not require you nor even even the membership here to validate that fact...

You claim to want to change things here for the better, than might I suggest pursuing the rest of the program your so quick to shoot down, strive to be a part of something bigger than yourself, and attempt to change it from the inside out...

This is not a dogmatic order, and achieve the inspiration and motivation (our call to) action through shifted perception induced by the lessons given between the IP, Apprenticeships, and beyond as well as the natural experiences of normal everyday human life. The responsibility toward that action, thereafter, is your's and your's alone. What wisdom becomes of you out of what you have gone through and learned will fruit what you do with it. However, it is not taught to hold one's ability to action as a prideful trophy. Our inspiration between our members and as a community whole comes out of our general communion here, where we support each other morally and through philosophical discussion responsible for growing our individual and humble calls to action. Through the phases of this learning, many go through what I see as a detox of ego-inflation brought on by the typical world we come into the doors from before our waters are settled enough to realize our lessons.

Good morning Novice Anison.

(Using your full name and title because you outrank me and I'm respectful like that )


I've read your post, all the replies, and your counter replies.

I have thoughts, but nothing that has not been more or less stated by my superiors here at the temple, so I don't wish to embarrass myself by trying to explain them in my usual clumsy fashion.

If it suits your leisure, please do not hesitate to contact me via PM, I would happy to discuss your ideas (and if I may be so bold, your worries) in a friendly and open manner.

At your service

- Jim.

Hello Anison,

Your topic is well filled with questions, the toughs you wrote down made me think a lot and I would like to respond, it might be a bit messy though. Small thingy I do want to notice is that I am not a native speaker so I might create confusion but you will get used to it, hopefully, very soon!

The Temple is a digital place that changes every now and then, the rank of Knight can be seen as a 'full membership' or as I like to see it: A member holding duty towards the greater good of the Temple. It is true that Knights have a code they follow, but most Jedi Apprentices, Jedi Initiates, Jedi Novices and thus Jedi also follow this code even though their understanding may not be as complete as that of a Knight, myself included as an Apprentice.

You have done 6 hours of your life to get past half of your IP, I took more than a year to get to that point. It took me around 2 years to actually finishing it. :blink: Might be because I am not as fast though. ^^ One of the things I often see with 'lower ranks' is that there is a certain clouded sight of 'we' and 'they'. The 'we' are initiates and lower, 'they' are the knights, and then there are also the 'we's who were able to find a teaching master. What makes it that we split things up? I am Apprentice but that does also mean I am still a Novice too! :side: Similar for Knights and upwards.
There is no way we can split up who we are. We give names to 'privileges' because our system, and not the persons holding it, works that way. I dislike using the word 'privilege' buy the way.

Apprentice is an initiate who has been accepted by a training master -> an Initiate is a novice who has completed the Initiate program -> A novice is a Temple member who studies the initiate program.

Anison wrote: The unfortunate truth of this order is written on every page of it. Most of the members here like it because of the fact that it is mostly online.

Assumption, have you asked most members here? One of the things I worry about is how easily one can assume things, and how easily one can believe it. The concept of training is a work in progression and far from polished indeed. For me the Temple is religion, Jediism is faith, and her members are my family. Dedication is a point of view... it does not add anything. Interaction and serving the greater good of the temple, that comes forth out of dedication, does.
Carlos wrote out in his Block a good wile ago: ,,Jedi-ism can be numerous ideas that exist at the same time.'' Those words still 'make' me happy every day! It is worth exploring, similar with some of the sermons, it might help you. The concept of single sighted -ism must be let go in order to Flow trough the Force rather than locking it. Similar can be told about the Teaching Masters of the Temple, every master has a different approach and set of life lessons. I assume that a Jedi Master feels many things but does that makes us who we are or does it tells us about the environment we are in? :side:

As Jedi myself I have told most of my family about my Jediism, spoke with multiple people and strangers about Jediism, it does not bother me at all because I have faith in my religion. A Christian believes that a man can split the sea in two, would that be considered equally strange? I guess it woud. The world hold so many weird and terrible 'truths' that it is for me not needed to hide my Religion. I consider myself Apprentice even when I sign out, even if I finish my apprenticeship.. If one puts more value to his Rank than its meaning it creates unbalance, guess it will feel different when signing out then? Everything is connected with the Force, everything is part of the Force, even 'common' subjects like 'what are you listening to threads' holds lessons. I would love to have robes, big black Sith like robes with super long sleeves reaching the ground, hold together by a white robe around it and a massive hood covering my face; even though our Doctrine tells nothing about it ehm! ... but it would only for ceremonial purpose I guess! Have you ever seen a priest wearing his ceremonial robes 24/7? I have not seen that! Should it matter?


Hopefully you do not consider my post rude or aggressive as it is not my intention. :blush: I really appreciate that you want to respond and work on your IP as I look forward in reading it. Please take all the time you need, no hurry!

~