The Problems with TotJO

Do the problems with TOTJO have a/some solutions which can be brought forward to Council?

EDITED - JUST EVERYTHING EDITED.

RIGHT.

I'll open with an apology - I just went back and read my older posts.

I think I pretty much said all I wanted to say in post 281816, so I've unfortunately wasted the reader (and my) time with this recent....rubbish.

so there's that. I guess it's my shout.

Now, no one likes being given a problem without a solution. It requires leadership and decision making and, frankly, few people are any good at it.

So, Anison, - How are we to proceed?

Obviously you can reply to me (and ros, who beat me) here, or PM me if you feel your ideas are outlandish or will not be received warmly. I am deeply interested.


I must ask that you do not fail as the last three people who wanted to create a "Better" Jedi system did. I can't for the life of me remember their names.

I wasn't going to but... ok... I'll bite... Once.

Anison wrote: Avalonslight:
- First of all, thank you for the involved and thought-out response. I was, however, disappointed to see that you responded while in a clearly emotionally compromised state. I made statements about that above and more at the end of this post. I think it helps everyone when you first take a breath and then respond.

No. My response is simply this. To echo what Senan has already said: you are neither justified in nor qualified to speak to my emotional state in a post from months ago. However, going back and rereading said post, I can say simply that I was not, in any way, emotionally compromised. And, to echo what Senan said, we don't discuss people, we discuss ideas. I'd appreciate it if you'd remember that in the future before attempting to make personal swipes to the integrity of what I'm saying.

- “The IP and the programs here are purely required for on site advancement.”
- Which is why I won’t be doing them. If I do, it will be because I’ve got nothing better to do. The list of those things is quite long, however.

Then honestly... I've got nothing more to say in regards to your complaints. You're attempting to change the system without participating in the system and learning what it has to offer to you, and by that fact alone, the value to your input is next to zero for me. Sorry, but that's really all there is to it. If you want to change the system after taking the time to truly and sincerely learn from it and participate in it, then that's a different story. I don't agree with very much of what happens here, or how it happens, but I've been working my way through what this site has to offer. Slowly, but I've been doing it, and it has taught me a significant amount. You lose out on a great deal by not doing the same. And since you don't want to do the same, I'm not sure I can take your effort to change anything seriously.

You, as well as many others, have mistakenly decided that I was saying we should be more “evangelical” (I would advise looking up that word. You misused it several times.).

You said that we, as a Jedi organization, should go out and spread the Jedi faith. That is, quite literally, the definition of 'evangelical':

: marked by militant or crusading zeal : evangelistic
the evangelical ardor of the movement's leaders — Amos Vogel

Example: He spoke about the project with evangelical zeal.

or this definition:

zealous in advocating something

Further, 'evangelical' is synonymous with 'missionary' or 'proselytizing', which is precisely what you were advocating.

And that is precisely how I used it in response. It is not a misuse. Now, I will grant you that the most common use of the word 'evangelical' is in the Christian context, however my use of the word was not incorrect. Uncommon, but not incorrect. There's only one person on this site who is allowed to criticize my word usage and you, good sir, are not him.

Now... to the last bit:

1. Read First, Post Later: There is a high chance what you are going to say has been said before and no one wants to read the same thing several times.

You've been told time and time again, but I shall repeat: If you don't listen to what any of us are saying, we're going to keep repeating it. And as others have said, we're not going to stop one person from saying the same thing another person has said. Here's me being less than polite once again: get. over. it.

2. Grammar and Spelling: This is a website so your appearance is directly correlated to what you type/submit. [...]
3. Diction: I have seen some truly horrendous diction used.

FYI: This is an international site. Not everyone who walks through our doors will be a native English speaker. If you're unable to give a person respect because of what you're judging to be inappropriate language use, you need to look inside yourself. Otherwise, once again: get. over. it.


(If someone of authority wants to smack my wrist for any of my above statements, feel free to do so. I've had my piece and I'm done and outta here.)

I always find it interesting to see members debating, but I will be not the first to say that there is always an issue of respecting another's post, topic, thoughts, questions, etc.....

Why is it such a problem?

The Real world is the background of it all... We live in a world that has a whirlwind of ever changing thoughts, ideology, beliefs (non- religious) and actions.

If you look back in time, historical timelines, you will see that a great procession was kept a bay for how many hundreds of years and just the last 250-300 years, went into high gear so to speak, the turmoil it created is still a backlash.

Instead of complaining, and others being uncaring or unfriendly representations when a response is given, if you are angered or upset by something, instead of backlashing one's self... Try instead to make suggestions instead of angered responses. You can always go to the Council, in private if you wish to let us know what is happening that you or someone else is dealing with the start of what can grow out of control in words between each other....

If the Council hears about it after the fire has be started and given fuel to get bigger it takes more time to douse the flames....

And as for Grammar... to many may not have grammar check or even a good sense of grammar. That's life. Nothing is ever perfect nor will it be anytime soon. All we can do is strive to make it better....

As for Jedi in the Temple here vs the outside world. The hope comes from principles, Doctrine, studying and practicing for ones self... There are a lot Role players out in the world and the only one that can make it work in their life is themselves... We try to provide the information to help, knowledge for the hungry person that wants to understand more, provide the materials and tools to guide... No different than when I was in Nursing School. Here's the books and the practical applications and on hand experience, but, the only one that can make it work was myself to achieve that....

Harshness never brings good things and I'm not saying get overly happy thoughts or cheery answers... Can't swing from one to the other, you're still gonna hit that brick wall called life.... But, if one has a concern, idea, question etc. that's not getting answered in the Forums as one may want, message the Council.... We do listen...

Anison wrote: Dano Ori:
- New favorite response.
- To address the first half:
- I am not sure drawing comparisons between martial arts and ToTJO is fair. Martial Arts has a much better foundation and its reward for work is far greater too. Because of this, martial arts has a far greater number of members. Coincidence? Absolutely not. I really want to dive into an analysis of how ToTJO could gain by studying what has brought martial arts success but I said I am going to keep this more concise so I am.
- To address the larger paragraph after the pictures (by the way I see a duck and a young lady):
- I am not saying for me to be right you all have to concede and be wrong. It isn’t that black or white. If you guys like this then, by all means, may it last into eternity. I don’t think it will but I would not attempt to hinder it. I am only saying that I think there is a better way to do this.

You are quite correct that it is fair to neither to draw comparisons between martial arts and TotJO, however my point was to illustrate that I have dealt with similar frustrations to those aroused by this thread in other areas of my life and experience; not to imply that martial arts and TotJO are the same.

On that subject though, I would like to point out that TotJO is to Jediism what Taekwondo is to martial arts; merely one school of though in a broad and diverse tapestry of knowledge and experience. The number of martial artists is likely a product of the centuries of traditions that have taught them, whereas TotJo has existed for little over a decade. Is there something the temple can learn from martial arts? Of course there is; knowledge is to be found everywhere. However, as you rightly point out, TotJo is not a martial art and should not attempt to emulate one for the sake of increasing membership or chasing success - whatever success is defined to be.

I'm pleased you can see both images as it speaks to an open mind that may or may not be reflected in some of the responses in this thread. I agree that for you to be right does not mean those who disagree must be wrong. That was the purpose of the illustrations I provided: to show that different people can see entirely different things and both be right. You still didn't tell me the colour of the dress though! (Mind you, I don't think that debate is a thing any more.)

Honestly, I appreciate your zeal and candor in expressing your concerns. Don't think for a moment I am suggesting you 'drink the cool-aid' and simply accept everything without question, however I am curious to see what your views would be after completing at least the IP. It has been said that to break the rules you must first understand them and I wonder what, if any, beliefs you currently hold might be influenced by delving into the subject matter so many here have explored.

I stand by my offer to work through the IP together if you should decide to involve yourself with it, though I have now moved on to lesson 2.

As a former knight I had many criticisms of totjo, but as a former knight I think I could be allowed to have such criticisms. My question is, if we have so many things you don't like, why are you still here, Anison?
Quite frankly that this thread had gone on so long just shows how allowing totjo is, but don't you think perhaps you may now be outstaying your welcome? Being as I'm only a guest now, I can put it more blunt for you if that helps.

Edan wrote: As a former knight I had many criticisms of totjo, but as a former knight I think I could be allowed to have such criticisms. My question is, if we have so many things you don't like, why are you still here, Anison?
Quite frankly that this thread had gone on so long just shows how allowing totjo is, but don't you think perhaps you may now be outstaying your welcome? Being as I'm only a guest now, I can put it more blunt for you if that helps.

Is not this the same as saying: "If you dont like it here you can leave" ? That seems to me very unfriendly and unwelcoming , not that i dont agree with you Edan , i understand the sentiment , but i also greatly admire Anisons efforts and i try to look beyond his critisism , he has got some good points and they are worth examining, i am not really sure his attitude is very becoming of a Jedi , but i am the last one to judge him , as i myself have shown behaviour very unbecoming of a Knight and had to step back to see the full picture and re educate myself which is an ongoing learning proces ,

I also think this is a good discussion and if we all try to be respectfull and try to learn from this we can actually grow from this , and if Anison and i and a few others can actually get over ourselfes we will grow from this , we can choose to push eachother away or ..try to get a little closer and examine where the real issues lie, From that point on we can build a foundation or just turn around and walk away. The latter is always an option btw , this is not the only Jedi learning place

So , thank you everyone who contributed !

The "if you don't like it, leave" argument is the worst possible for any place of spiritual learning. No, we're not for everyone, but that's for them to decide. Not us.

Is not this the same as saying: "If you dont like it here you can leave" ? That seems to me very unfriendly and unwelcoming , not that i dont agree with you Edan , i understand the sentiment , but i also greatly admire Anisons efforts and i try to look beyond his critisism , he has got some good points and they are worth examining, i am not really sure his attitude is very becoming of a Jedi , but i am the last one to judge him , as i myself have shown behaviour very unbecoming of a Knight and had to step back to see the full picture and re educate myself which is an ongoing learning proces ,

I know what I said is particularly blunt, but if you turn up to a coffee shop and decide you don't like their menu, don't like the way they've written it, and don't like the way the staff talk, I'd humbly suggest going to a different coffee shop...

What is stupid, is hanging around by the doorway telling everyone why the coffee shop is wrong and expecting everything to change.

It's a bit different to being a regular customer who already buys their coffee there and discovers one day the tables aren't very clean.

Edan said;

I know what I said is particularly blunt, but if you turn up to a coffee shop and decide you don't like their menu, don't like the way they've written it, and don't like the way the staff talk, I'd humbly suggest going to a different coffee shop...

To me it did not even come off as that blunt Edan and i really get where you are coming from , and believe me i am the last person who has a right to judge what you said , i just wanted to point out the efforts that Anison put in his analysis and we are here to offer an alternative, either he helps with a solution or he tries the coffee at the shop down the road from here , i here they have nice cappucino there

Like some said , there are ways to go when you want to change anything ...anywhere