My belief system

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16 Apr 2019 21:45 #337277 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic My belief system

Why was it faith she relied on and not the emotional support of friends and family? I’m not saying science deals in emotions, but the human condition does and that’s where service begins. Not in some false belief system but in real human connection! That is the Force to me. The force does not exist “out there”, it’s inside us. I would rather believe we have the power to comfort and make feel better, not some ancient book or arcane belief system. Understanding the natural cycles of life and finding support in other real beings instead of inventing supernatural crap that is ultimately meaningless and serves only to waste our lives by replacing that real human connection we all require.


Dude, you are entirely on point. I think the problem is that we (humans in general terms) have looked to the stars (literally and figuratively) for answers and created the "God of the gaps". Normally, psuedo-science should be replaced by actual science/knowledge. But the problem is the emotional connection to these ideas once the alternate reality explanation is accepted. God isn't just "out there" to them. He's "in their hearts". He's their friend. And I really hope I don't ruffle feathers by saying this but typically children create imaginary friends for the same reason. Need. Now once the mind accepts a certain reality you're dealing with not one idea but rather a complicated matrix of ideas, each tied into the other and reinforcing each other. So even though what you're saying is correct it would be much easier for my children to understand the Force than trying to unplug my mother. Now... if I wanted to I could probably get her to "bend the spoon" slightly (geez... the references) by upgrading her Christian understanding, but I'd have to stay within the Christian context. It's part of her reality and identity and therefore anything that would make her not a Christian anymore her mind is going to naturally reject because the brain doesn't care whether the data it holds is true or false. That's up to our ego. From the brain's perspective its just data. And so it will protect the data from what it perceives to be a hacking attempt. If you're trying to change 1 idea... entirely possible. But trying to change the entire mental matrix at the same time when all of those connections, memories, experiences, are reinforcing each other... you would have to be some kind of genius level social hacker to pull that off. I'm definitely not smart enough to do it. And doing it you risk doing damage to the identity and all the associated memories you're trying to isolate from the religion. Because she's over 70 so what if someone told you that the last 70 years of your life (and you know you're creeping up on the end) was a lie? There is both an emotional and an ego/id connection to it.

I don’t believe fear leads to the dark side. I believe that superstition and faith lead to detrimentally destructive behaviors.


superstition is largely a reaction to fear of the unknown. People react to fear usually by fight or flight. Fight is destruction by nature. Flight can also be destructive depending on what you're fleeing from. The Yoda quote about fear also has to be seen through balance because a little bit of fear can be healthy, but too much fear produces WMDs, the dark ages, salem witch trials, Nazis, KKK, etc. Almost every horrific event can be traced to either fear or malice.

This is not my issue. He is responsible for his own thoughts, feelings and actions. I take no responsibility for them.

Then why the need to correct his beliefs? Those would be his responsibility as well.

Actually I sanction neither fictional realm. Star Wars is just a fantasy movie. What I do sanction is the relevant wisdom behind it. I don’t claim Star Wars as a belief system and I don’t think anyone should make up a revisionist spiritual history of our world and then claim that as a belief system. It does an incredible disservice to the real history of our planet and it cheapens those old world spiritualties by corrupting them into something they were never meant to be. Those ancient spiritualties are incredibly rich and full of wisdom. Why not explore them for what they were instead of trying to squeeze them into a fantastical realm of a specific science fiction construct? To treat them so badly seems like escapist ideology not a search for truth.


I understand where you're coming from but my study of ancient religions leads me to believe that the importance was placed on the understanding/wisdom/spirituality more than the symbols. Symbols change from language to language and so do words. Ideas; however, are universal. So we can all use different words for the same ideas. This is true of religion which is simply the vehicle to carry and reinforce spiritual understanding. This vehicle is often driven by a crazy person who drives off the road.... but it doesn't change the overall intent. Over time, westerners (mainly theologians) started judging ancient cultures and taking their belief in all the symbols literally in order to convince each other that they were savages who didn't know what they were talking about. This view helped support their own religion at the cost of many others. Many people had to hide their religions and gods under the mask of Christianity. The old world borrowed stories from each other and changed them all the time. The Epic of Gilgamesh became Noah's Deluge. So ironically, imho, what Lenny has done is far more historically appropriate than we're giving it credit for in this age of science and reason.

I don’t necessarily agree. Truth is not about compromise. If one position is wrong then that position must relinquish its position in favor of the other. It’s not about compromise in this instance. How we view our world can be about synthesis of course so I agree there. That is a place of cooperation and human experience, but facts are facts and to rewrite history to entertain a fantasy is just wrong. I don’t think this is too broad a spectrum to quantify into a coherent argument. I love a good fantasy as much as the next person. It’s why I was drawn to Star Wars and the exploration of this site. I just don’t want to see people confuse the fantasy with the reality and that happens all too often on this site.


That's understandable. But what I see consistently in religious history... which I think we might be conflating with actual history... is a blending of facts and fiction. When recounting a memory your brain isn't entirely accurate even if you think it is. Whatever gaps it doesn't remember it substitutes with your imagination. This happens in a way we don't realize. Point is... especially before computers and extensive and accurate record keeping (think about all the versions of biblical manuscripts... its a mess) humans didn't have a real way to keep all of our facts straight. And therefore I think there was always a certain level of imagination involved that was accepted. On top of that no one in the ancient world went to journalism school so accounts were biased. Of course this person or that person rose from the grave. Why wouldn't they? So all I'm proposing is that if something is pitched as "belief" it isn't treated as a set of facts that all have to add up, but rather a set of ideas that only need to add up for the person who believes it.
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16 Apr 2019 21:58 #337278 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic My belief system

Lenny C wrote: Ok what I believe truth. When I was young I was all into magic. I got my first set of runes when I was 17. I became mentally unstable when I was 19 but then started to use rune magic and my belief in the force (starwars) As I progressed through the years doing magic ,I realised what I was doing wasn’t really magic at all , but a way of convincing my mind to believe in what Magic I was writing down. Up until recently, I had a revaluation So instead
of just believing in the force and using magic to turn myself into having medichlorians. I would use my magic to create my own personal force only I could use. After I did that I did some research and found articles on djedi which did similar things to me. Right Now after all I have done with magic, is
more rather a way of convincing myself, like the either real or fantasy djedi did. So that’s why I believe in djedi.


I think Lenny is awesome. Let me translate this for my fellow super Logical thinkers.

Lenny has created his own 'magic' by hacking his own brain. And this is what you're actually supposed to be trying to accomplish through things like meditation.

As I said before, the brain doesn't really care about the accuracy of the data it holds. The mind can be tricked by "magic" which may simply be slight of hand but who cares if everyone enjoys it. On some level Lenny is conscious and aware of what he's doing but he's able to believe in order to gain the benefit of that belief. In other words, he's able to challenge his limitations by convincing his mind that he doesn't have them. This has been done by sages and mystics and people around the world. I absolutely believe in the power of the mind and the ability to do things that are otherwise unheard of based on what you can get your mind to believe. Mind over matter.

The history of the Jedi is kind of a totem.. part of the overall container for him to put his faith into. That faith can then be harnessed and is as potent as his ability to believe which is increased by the research and connections between the different data points. I'm actually somewhat jealous of this because my tendency, as a programmer, is towards too much logic.
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16 Apr 2019 22:38 #337281 by Tellahane
Replied by Tellahane on topic My belief system

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Tellahane wrote: When someone is dying literally in your arms and there is nothing that can be done about it, what they believe in does not matter. What matters is that they believe...


Why? And believe what? This seems a nonsensical statement. What if they are dying in your arms screaming because they believe they are going to hell to be tortured for the rest of eternity because they are a horrible person?


Out of the number of times I've been in this situation, that has happened 0 times...perhaps its possible but its nothing like what you may see on TV drama shows...
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16 Apr 2019 22:43 #337283 by Ambert The Traveller
I suggest to add a special interest group on ancient religions. This could include greek, roman, egyptian, maybe persian and assyrian beliefs. Even so it might remain a minority interest thing, it could certainly close a gap and maybe advance knowledge and understanding.
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16 Apr 2019 23:02 - 16 Apr 2019 23:03 #337285 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic My belief system
Jediism is to a large extent about syncretism IMO, so if people aren't able to (or even feel welcome to) explore and hybridize then there is a serious divorce from the function of the site to its stated purpose.

Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 16 Apr 2019 23:03 by Adder.
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16 Apr 2019 23:10 #337288 by Rosalyn J
Replied by Rosalyn J on topic My belief system
I've read this thread in bits and parts. I wanted to address something. There was a comment that "the brain doesn't care whether tje data it has is right or wrong". I would disagree and state that it is difficult to seperate brain from id or ego and its why we have debates, games of one upmanship and the feild of apologetics.

As I say, I am still a Christian and proud. I do not need to debate my belief with another person or have my belief debated with me. My belief extends itself in my practice of how I live my life as much as I can according to the teachings of Christ
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17 Apr 2019 00:03 #337290 by Kyrin Wyldstar
Replied by Kyrin Wyldstar on topic My belief system

Tellahane wrote: Out of the number of times I've been in this situation, that has happened 0 times...perhaps its possible but its nothing like what you may see on TV drama shows...


Well I would say you have experienced a very limited view of the world then. I'm not talking about drama here so I would appreciate you not reducing my experience to a fabricated enactment.

This guns for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark.
My Journals: Kyrin-Wyldstar

Associate Degree of Divinity - Earned July, 2017
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17 Apr 2019 00:31 #337292 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic My belief system

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Tellahane wrote: Out of the number of times I've been in this situation, that has happened 0 times...perhaps its possible but its nothing like what you may see on TV drama shows...


Well I would say you have experienced a very limited view of the world then. I'm not talking about drama here so I would appreciate you not reducing my experience to a fabricated enactment.


It's assumptions being used as basis for judgementalism which tend to create a lot of lateral momentum in these threads perhaps. He didn't say you had a limited experience, he didn't make an assumption about you, but rather seemingly reflected on his own experience relative to what is available to most people. So I don't see it as him reducing your experience. He just said it was not like TV drama shows... but, you actually did say he must have had a limited experience. So your the one trying to reduce someones experience seemingly. A judgmental attitude will always try to compare and in the absence of data will jump to conclusions,, because finding information out takes time and as an attitude it is removed from process. A judgement should be a process, not an attitude IMO. For lateral momentum is wasted energy IMO.... as a pilot its like having to head a bearing into the wind to track a path, you end up flying further (by using more fuel) to get from A to point B.

Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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17 Apr 2019 01:01 #337295 by ren
Replied by ren on topic My belief system

Rosalyn J wrote: I've read this thread in bits and parts. I wanted to address something. There was a comment that "the brain doesn't care whether tje data it has is right or wrong". I would disagree and state that it is difficult to seperate brain from id or ego and its why we have debates, games of one upmanship and the feild of apologetics.

As I say, I am still a Christian and proud. I do not need to debate my belief with another person or have my belief debated with me. My belief extends itself in my practice of how I live my life as much as I can according to the teachings of Christ


I read somewhere that the primary function of the brain is to discard judged irrelevant data. Good selection of trash = quality brain activity.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
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17 Apr 2019 01:40 - 17 Apr 2019 01:49 #337297 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic My belief system
I think the subconscious filters the stuff it deems junk, but what's being discussed IMO is the conscious processes of cognition. Talking about the interaction with the subconscious is going to another level. By generating a framework that is 'results based' it reduces the usefulness in conforming to normality. In terms of neuroplasticity its said 'what fires together, wires together', so what you think will tend to become what you believe.... the interface of subconscious and conscious in simple terms IMO appears to be; subconscious filtering, instincts and signalling <-> interface layer, using habits, and beliefs as 'decision shortcuts' ie pseudo instincts <-> consciousness. That might relate to id, ego and super-ego but I haven't bothered with unpacking Freuds ideas yet into a contemporary and personal framework.

To me though engineering ones cognitive psychology is all about redefining what is and is not junk, as much as possible at each particular layer... and its not useful to limit that by anything other then results. It's why I think many spiritual and religious paths drive home a strong moral basis, because being true and open to ones inner mental processes requires an honesty and vulnerability which tests more then any material pressure or torture. A diseased system is a weak system, same with self, and pain speaks a colourful language in the depths of ones mind.... ye ole Dagobah cave. It comes down to is the effort worth it, and that only can be known and acknowledged by the individual. Judge not lest ye be judged, is the main reason so many people hide behind facades, aggression and self righteousness... they are scared of being true to self, so persist as sheep in wolves clothing. #wannabephilosophiffiziling

Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 17 Apr 2019 01:49 by Adder.
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