My belief system

He doesn't state that he believes it, he found it through "research".

Jedi seek the truth in all things, do they not?

Training: To know one's ignorance.
A Jedi knows there is always something more to learn and seeks new lessons every day. - 21 Jedi Maxims

He claims to be a Jedi Consular, which means he claims the Jedi Path as a whole. If you're not willing to take in new information and apply it to your paradigm based on the truth of what you see, all you're doing is saying you don't have a care in the world for the person or persons which utilize the information you are bending to your own will. You can hardly call that true respect for others when you take the information and make it something it is not.

Create your own beliefs, but not at the expense of tearing into someone else's deeply rooted culture.

It seems like an unfounded emotional response. Have you read this thread? He says many times its his belief. There is a difference between having a belief and asserting it as a truth. It would be wrong IMO to conflate the two and define a truth as a limitation on belief. Unless of course they contradict themselves, but in this case that would require it being asserted as a truth. It depends on what the belief is being used for. And obviously applying your definitions of Force, Jedi Consular and the Jedi way or path is not really a measure of another persons definitions being 'true' or 'false' beyond a comparison. Hence why I was curious as to why it annoys you... you don't have to answer of course, but since you posted I thought I'd ask.

I guess there is an argument that syncretism can dilute existing cultures which makes their followers fearful of that, which can lead to anger at the occurrence to syncretism of ones culture. Then we know how it goes, next comes hate and we all go around poking eyes out But syncretism doesn't usually go to define the source culture, but use parts of it to define a new culture AFAIK.

Up to that point, I had not read the whole thing.

I have now. But I tend more towards (ironically) Kyrin's assessment in this thread than anyone else's.

Lenny's beliefs may be beliefs, but they do actually throw the Jedi Path to the curb entirely- because he's not actually looking for the truth. What he wants is something to justify the things he's come to understand in the world and he's finding it in places that want to fit the world into their views rather than taking the world for what it is.

One can form ideas and concepts without making history tell the story the way they want to hear it.

(paraphrased)
"The ancients believed XYZ, I am justified in believing in XYZ, because of them."

That's the ego seeking justification, when it doesn't necessarily need justification.

"I believe in the Force, because I see it all around me" doesn't need to be followed up by "I also believe in the Force, because this ancient group of Israelites believed in Farr" (which btw, isn't true- even in Hebrew it is the same as the first Persian translation).

In saying such, you take away from the Israelites' past. You even miss out on some really good studying if you do this because there might be a real equivalent to the Force in Israelite history that you could be exploring. But instead, you're exploring "splendor", "luxury", "glory", "grandeur", "important"(Aramaic). (in case anyone is wondering, I do happen to believe there is an equivalent in Israelite tradition, but I have yet to find it named, more talked about and around).

You don't need ancestors to tell you what to believe, nor should you be telling them what they believed- respect them and look for the truth; or at the very least leave them be and find your own truth without them. It's that simple, otherwise you do everyone (including yourself) a massive disservice.

Alethea Thompson wrote: Up to that point, I had not read the whole thing.

I have now. But I tend more towards (ironically) Kyrin's assessment in this thread than anyone else's.

Lenny's beliefs may be beliefs, but they do actually throw the Jedi Path to the curb entirely- because he's not actually looking for the truth. What he wants is something to justify the things he's come to understand in the world and he's finding it in places that want to fit the world into their views rather than taking the world for what it is.

One can form ideas and concepts without making history tell the story the way they want to hear it.

(paraphrased)
"The ancients believed XYZ, I am justified in believing in XYZ, because of them."

That's the ego seeking justification, when it doesn't necessarily need justification.

"I believe in the Force, because I see it all around me" doesn't need to be followed up by "I also believe in the Force, because this ancient group of Israelites believed in Farr" (which btw, isn't true- even in Hebrew it is the same as the first Persian translation).

In saying such, you take away from the Israelites' past. You even miss out on some really good studying if you do this because there might be a real equivalent to the Force in Israelite history that you could be exploring. But instead, you're exploring "splendor", "luxury", "glory", "grandeur", "important"(Aramaic). (in case anyone is wondering, I do happen to believe there is an equivalent in Israelite tradition, but I have yet to find it named, more talked about and around).

You don't need ancestors to tell you what to believe, nor should you be telling them what they believed- respect them and look for the truth; or at the very least leave them be and find your own truth without them. It's that simple, otherwise you do everyone (including yourself) a massive disservice.

Don't you think it depends on what that belief is being used for though? If it's motivating one to learn more about those cuiltures then it would seem to be a really positive influence.... the belief is in effect serving as a scaffold to construct an accurate picture, ie a living frame of reference. How one shapes and uses a belief to me is what spirituality is, and its personal because its a 'living aspect' of their focus. To me, the problems only occur when someone starts telling others what is true and what is not.... which has not happened here. And its only when someone starts asserting something as truth that it can be fairly said to be countering that preexisting truth. A lot of Western culture conflates belief with truth because old religions used to define belief as truth... but its not necessarily how belief seems to work IMO... and as Jedi we probably don't let old systems of thinking define how we can best be.

belief noun
be·​lief | \ bə-ˈlēf
\
Definition of belief

1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing her belief in God a belief in democracy I bought the table in the belief that it was an antique. contrary to popular belief
2 : something that is accepted, considered to be true, or held as an opinion : something believed an individual's religious or political beliefs especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group the beliefs of the Catholic Church
3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence


http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/farrah

As Alethea says, If something is not true, why would a Jedi ever consider it a part of their worldview?

Thank for the link Kyrin. I did read it and was really an eye opener. Like i said having a open mind allows one to look at what they believe and take on board what other people’s thoughts are.
We can all find similarities in all religions, so instead of arguing who is right, we should be talking and identify these similarities in what we believe, for example I have told you all my beliefs and there maybe simulaties in your beliefs.

Here is an example of belief. Maybe this applies to Christian Jedi. Annakin was born according to starwars cannon with no father. The first similarity. But if you look deeper there are more, when Annakin now Vader tells his son Luke to join Him. we could look at this as Christians following Jesus and Being his sons.
At the end Lukes faith Inbringing his father to the light could be interpreted as finding Jesus through the bible. Vader sacrifices himself by killing the evil emperor and thus destroying the evil, which could be interpreted as Jesus sacrifices himself for his sons and daughters on the cross.
Thanks for reading and by know means to I intend to disrespect anyone’s faith. I personally belief that all faiths are personal and individual to that person.

For I am a Jedi consular. So if there is light there must be dark. I look at the force not only with my beliefs but with a open mindset. I judge not. To fully understand something is impossible. we can learn to understand which is not impossible. We can embrace darkness but our light will shine through , for all of us have a belief. But should not be afraid of others who believe something else, you nor they are wrong.

Adder wrote: If it's motivating one to learn more about those cuiltures...

Are you truly learning about their culture if you are looking at the lies that are being spread about them?

You say my belief is wrong because of no factual evidence. That is your individual opinion and I take on board what you say. Would you say to a spiritual medium your belief in communication with dead is wrong because you can’t see the dead.
Would you say some African faiths with God’s that have no books or scrolls saying this is 100% fact because it’s taught generation to next generation and there is no evidence saying it is fact.
Would you say the bible is fact when it has been translated from Hebrew to Greek and then to other languages in which some key points of Christianity could have gotten lost in translation. With every bit of fiction there has to some sort of truth. If you look at most movies. Let’s say you watched lord of the rings, would come out of cinema and say that film was crap non of it was true, or would you come out of cinema saying Gandalf magic against that evil wizard was cool and enjoyed the film.

If you actually break down a belief it stems from where you live, the culture you live in, what your family have believed and taught, what you learnt at school, what books you have read fact and fiction, a place you find peace could be a church or even a special forest where you do witchcraft, but it’s your belief if it’s fact or fiction if it aids you in everyday life, then who is any one to say your wrong because it does not fit in with what I believe.

There's a massive difference between the two

The beliefs you have asserted in the beginning have actual evidence that shows you're wrong.

The belief in ghosts doesn't have evidence that they do not exist.

The absence of evidence, is not evidence.

It's not that there is no evidence to support your theory, it's that the evidence which is present demonstrates you are wrong in these beliefs. Facing such evidence, you are forced to either stand up and admit you were wrong...or you could continue living in the state of personal ego that wishes to be right just so you don't have to face you are wrong.


I've faced that many times with my beliefs. And I will continue to do so as I press forward despite the heart-wrenching truths I have to face. Will you be able to do the same- not publicly, but with yourself? With the Force? (that's meant for you to answer to yourself, I don't intend to see you post an answer publicly)

If I started this thread saying I believe in the force and this is what I have done. With out mentioning djedi. Would you have given me such a hard time in what my belief is. Would you have said your belief of magic and then realising it’s not magic and I’m unlocking a belief with the force and not magic. How many of you would of said your wrong because what you have done is not factual and your belief is all wrong because I can’t see the truth in what you have done. Or maybe you would of said wow that’s really interesting. I did start this thread off with djedi then I can’t remember who said but what does this mean to you and what do you actually believe. I then talk about the magic and what the force means to me.

Please may you lock my thread on my belief system. It seems to be getting out of hand. I feel as if people who have not read the bit of what I actually believe, the magic and realising it’s not magic and it’s just me gaining peace and knowledge, through magic, but some seem to just say your wrong about believing in the Djedi and I did state if I remember djedi article was the closest article to what I believe and have done.

What's your point? Nobody said that any beliefs are entirely without any kind of personal value just because their content does not reflect what we know to be the case about the world we share. To say that your view of history is warped - or that there is no such thing as magic, for that matter - is not a condemnation of what ever spiritual value you feel like you are gaining from it. Personally I think there is enough in the real world around and before us to draw inspiration from without having to make up false stories in addition to it, but that is hardly any kind of substantive criticism of what ever value you do draw from your tall tales. If you think that beliefs are a matter of will and if you wish to believe false things, there is absolutely nothing any of us can do about it. But we can and will discuss and debate those things with you (if you please) and between each other and there is nothing you can do about that either.

If you are uncomfortable with hearing or knowing that what you believe is nonsense, that is your struggle to face and deal with as you can. I am uncomfortable with that, too. And I notice it happens more often in areas I know less about than in those where I know more. Hence I endure that discomfort, hoping for an opportunity to learn more and to correct previously held false ideas.

"Who are you to tell someone they're wrong?"
Well, I'm just another human being wrong almost all of the time like the rest of us mortals are. We may be all sorts of special in all of our individual ways, but this is one thing we have all in common and I'd for one find it a greater injustice if we didn't treat all of each other in recognition of that. This means nothing should get a free pass, no matter how many things do or how many more things you think do.

I’m trying to work out what you all believe. Because you say im wrong in your belief and Real magic is nonsense. But then you say I’m telling storys. the Djedi in this thread, I did not write and stated that it’s the closest article about the force, I have similar belief to what the fictional djedi believed
So what tales have I told. Your saying magic is fiction, but as a member pointed out earlier on the ghost phenomenon, you can’t proof magic is fiction nor fact. many people believe in magic, I’m not making false stories. Talk about jump on the bandwagon. I did not write anything to do with the article on djedi. In fact I may check but I don’t claim the djedi article as fact ,i claim its the closest article to what I believe about the force.

From an earlier post on page 5 I think..
Ok what I believe truth. When I was young I was all into magic. I got my first set of runes when I was 17. I became mentally unstable when I was 19 but then started to use rune magic and my belief in the force (starwars) As I progressed through the years doing magic ,I realised what I was doing wasn’t really magic at all , but a way of convincing my mind to believe in what Magic I was writing down. Up until recently, I had a revaluation So instead
of just believing in the force and using magic to turn myself into having medichlorians. I would use my magic to create my own personal force only I could use. After I did that I did some research and found articles on djedi which did similar things to me. Right Now after all I have done with magic, is
more rather a way of convincing myself, like the either real or fantasy djedi did. So that’s why I believe in djedi.

I wonder why, with whatever topic, many threads quickly get into such heated discussions about right and wrong, true or false, belief or not. But has anyone looked at the depth of what this ancient text actually might contain?

Interesting enough this Westcar papyrus seems to talk about a similar issue of true and false, beliefing or not.
Am quoting Wikipedia: "According to the Westcar Papyrus, prince Djedefhor brings up the story of Djedi. He stands before his father, king Khufu, and says: “There is only speaking of miracles which happened a long time ago, something known by past generations only. Truth and falsehood cannot be distinguished here. But there is someone under thy majesty´s own lifetime who is not known, someone who is able to make an ignoramus become wise." Khufu asks: “What's the meaning of this, Djedefhor, my son?” Djedefhor answers: “There's a commoner named Djedi, living in Djed-Sneferu. He's a simple citizen, but 110 years old, eats 500 loaves of bread, a shoulder of beef and drinks 100 jars of beer every day.” ... And Khufu orders: “You thyself, Djedefhor, my son, may bring him to me!” ...He finds Djedi and invites the old man to the king's palace with the words: "I have come to summon you in order of my father, justified, that you may eat from the delicacies my father gives, the food of his followers. And then he may guide you to the ancestors which are in the necropolis now." ... The Pharaoh receives Djedi with the words: “What is it, Djedi, this denying to have seen you ever before?” Djedi answers: “Oh sovereign, my lord! Only the one who is summoned is one who will come. I was summoned, and now see, oh sovereign, my lord, I have come.”.

So, what to do with that story, that seems so far fetched to our quick and shallow understanding? What is it's meaning? For whom? Whatever the meaning is, it is interesting enough to meditate, think, or pray, about this for a while.

This is one thought, one way of understanding this, as it came to my mind: So there is a person, who is not known to the pharao, out of the pharao's regular perception or focus that is said to be able to bring wisdom about the mircacles of the past. The pharao hears from someone else (his son) about it and asks to bring it closer to him, so he could get to know it and learn the truth of it. Once it's been summoned in his order, it may eat of his delicacies, the food of his followers - possibly meaning that the person, or learned truth, will take on the pharao's way of understanding, and fit in his belief system. Then it will die, and the pharao will naturally guide him to the ancestors, which are in the necropolis now.

So how could the pharao ever know this unknown person (or his insight), and become wise, if it takes on and shares in his favourite flavours through his summoning of them? Is this process we are looking at here a truth itself? One that we are unable to see, because it is hidden behind the tons of delicacies (beliefs) we have aquired according to our own taste, and of those we are lliaising with? As the papyrus implies, there is no way how what is unknown about the miracles of the past could be proven, or shared without a doubt - as it is naturally always summoned, and flavoured, by the one receiving knowledge of it.

Since today is Holy Saturday, similarities to the story of our beloved Jesus come to my mind, who eats and drinks with the followers of his Father, before he inevitably dies. Far from any possible proof, I can imagine that the Djedji story even inspired the later story of Jesus. But I am well aware that this similarity and imagination is my own, temporary understanding, influenced by the fact that I have eaten from his bread, the food of his followers, and have heard and seen his story celebrated so many times.

We might find this delusional or unscientific, or a lonely spark of insight in the face of an eternal universe - but how could we be truly human and alive, making sense of the world around us without the delicacies of our imaginations, dreams and aspirations? And without sharing them with our fellow contemporaries?

However you may celebrate it, may you have Happy Easter days and enjoy the blessed food and delicacies of being alive with your friends and family!

Lenny C wrote: You say my belief is wrong because of no factual evidence. That is your individual opinion and I take on board what you say. Would you say to a spiritual medium your belief in communication with dead is wrong because you can’t see the dead.
Would you say some African faiths with God’s that have no books or scrolls saying this is 100% fact because it’s taught generation to next generation and there is no evidence saying it is fact.
Would you say the bible is fact when it has been translated from Hebrew to Greek and then to other languages in which some key points of Christianity could have gotten lost in translation. With every bit of fiction there has to some sort of truth. If you look at most movies. Let’s say you watched lord of the rings, would come out of cinema and say that film was crap non of it was true, or would you come out of cinema saying Gandalf magic against that evil wizard was cool and enjoyed the film.

Yes I would say to a spiritual medium that her communication with the dead is either wrong and based in delusion or trickery, partially because I cant see the dead but particularly because they remain incapable of producing any actual evidence that are talking to the dead.

As for African oral traditions, they are myths and legends passed down through generations and have the potential for great wisdom woven within them, but to treat them as actual truthful beings and events takes it a step to far.

As for the bible it is rife with inconsistencies, unfounded claims and even outright lies, not to mention atrocious acts, beliefs, decrees and behaviours. There is little to no evidence that jesus was even real as depicted in its ancient tales. So no, I reject that as well as reasonable belief. It was just mentioned here that today is holy Saturday, the day before the claim of resurrection. But this is a claim of the highest arrogance for it is not a universal claim and to assume we all celebrate this day is just egotistical. I do not follow Christian teachings and so this day is just saturday for me. Others can have fun celebrating the rise of their zombie holy man, but for me I find the entire concept ridiculous.

The difference between these and lord of the rings is that lotr is actually presented as fantasy, not a belief system.

Adder wrote: There is a difference between having a belief and asserting it as a truth. It would be wrong IMO to conflate the two...

Some interesting PM conversations to come out of this thread but I think this statement here is the defining quality that defines the true Jedi from the role player. As a Ranger it seems obvious to me that having a belief is asserting it as a truth, but many here seem to be able to divorce these two concepts. This allows them to exist in a fantasy existence and ignore the reality of their situation. Its a dangerous place to dwell because it encourages delusion and abandons the paramount skill of critical thinking that I feel all true jedi should embrace as thee highest form of interaction with our reality in a never ending search for truth.