About THAT video and what it means to "Build Up"

More
7 years 1 month ago #278457 by Wescli Wardest

Tellahane wrote: By your example if I'm understanding it correctly there shouldn't be any shielding of knowledge, and to that point I CAN agree, however as I've stated before there is still a TIME and PLACE for it. You don't take a 6 year old and show them a video of someone murdering another because you don't want to shield them, you don't do it because at their point in their lives of understanding the world (or read as a Jedi is in the very beginning of their training process), they may not understand fully yet the concepts of right vs wrong, of what is allowed or not, they may think anything is fine you just get a week grounding or something.


I understand this line of thought. I really do. As a parent, I spent a good deal of my time NOT exposing my daughter to things that she might not have been ready for.

But I have to ask, how do I know what she is ready for? I can guess based off what I have observed or what I know she has been exposed to already. But is this an accurate estimate of what she is able to handle or is ready for? I don’t think so.

Often time’s children surprise us. Why is this? Because we consistently underestimate them. People going down the Jedi path are often like children in that we consistently underestimate them. And not being challenged is the quickest way to stagnation. So the moderators put it under a spoiler and for those that weren’t ready, well we’re dealing with them now.
:)

Monastic Order of Knights

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
7 years 1 month ago #278464 by Tellahane

Wescli Wardest wrote: Because we consistently underestimate them. People going down the Jedi path are often like children in that we consistently underestimate them. And not being challenged is the quickest way to stagnation.
:)


Just like all things, they can be overestimated as well. Let's just say I had a repeat customer with a sad story who is no longer with us because they we're forced into a position that was too much for them and they chose the wrong way out and it went downhill till it stopped. It's probably true in that they are underestimated more then over on a considerable amount, but when its over, it "can" be devastating, despite the best efforts of a great many people. NOT saying thats the only alternative its just one of those things where when it happens once to one person out of 100, even if its rare you never want that to happen again to any one. It's not always easy to predict..

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
7 years 1 month ago #278465 by Wescli Wardest
When something tragic happens to someone it is awful and none of us like it. And part of growing is learning how to deal with those sad stories. We cannot protect everyone in the world from all harm. We can provide them with alternate outcomes or choices. Just as the person in your story chose a path, it was their choice. And the Moderator placed the questionable material under a warning spoiler, and someone must choose to open it.

Censoring things we don’t like, or because we feel we are protecting others is not the path of truth in my opinion. It is oppression. It’s not objective, it’s subjective. I don’t think anyone wants rules and censorship based on anyone’s subjective reasoning.
:)

Monastic Order of Knights

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
7 years 1 month ago #278466 by Manu

Brick wrote:

Magnus Staar wrote: Not enough book-reading about pools before you jump into the pool? Between the books and the pool, the pool is the better teacher.


Indeed the pool is the better teacher, but one would normally start of in the shallow end, with armbands and/or a float rather than throwing one's self straight in at the deep end, right?


The lovely thing about online forums is that you cannot drown.

The pessimist complains about the wind;
The optimist expects it to change;
The realist adjusts the sails.
- William Arthur Ward

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
7 years 1 month ago - 7 years 1 month ago #278470 by Brick

Magnus Staar wrote:

Brick wrote:

Magnus Staar wrote: Not enough book-reading about pools before you jump into the pool? Between the books and the pool, the pool is the better teacher.


Indeed the pool is the better teacher, but one would normally start of in the shallow end, with armbands and/or a float rather than throwing one's self straight in at the deep end, right?


The lovely thing about online forums is that you cannot drown.


I would remind you that it was you that started this metaphor :laugh:

But if we're now being more literal, then it's true that you can't drown in an online forum, but you can't 'jump into the pool' either, only read about jumping into the pool ;)

Whilst drowning may not be one of them, there are still a great number of dangers associated with online forums.

Apprentice to Maitre Chevalier Jedi Alexandre Orion

Moderator | Welcome Team | IP Team

IP Journal | IP Journal 2 | AP Journal | Open Journal

'The only contest any of us should be engaged in is with ourselves, to be better than yesterday'

- Knight Senan
Last edit: 7 years 1 month ago by Brick.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Zenchi

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
7 years 1 month ago - 7 years 1 month ago #278498 by Adder
I would not go to the anti-censorship argument personally because it begs the question what is and is not allowed. To me the rules are better seen to represent an enforcible code of conduct created as a basis for the community itself to shape over time, as the limits of acceptable behaviour ie the minimum set of censoring needed to be as open as possible.

Is the suggestion seriously anything goes because we need to harden up? Or is that being used as a cop out to serve that same subjective reasoning but from the other side.

I get the feeling none of us would like to have a video of ourselves being viciously raped posted here, and to me murder is equal or worse then rape, yet we allow murder seemingly... perhaps only when it serves us a purpose? I dunno.

If we argue against all censorship based on some fear of inappropriate censorship then I wonder... do we allow videos of rape, do we allow video's of violent crime, do we allow video's of these things happening to strangers, or what if it was someone we knew, or to ourself - just because its in a spoiler tag and has a warning? Do we only allow it if the victim is no longer able to speak on their own behalf.... to avoid causing more pain to them, because that would seem hypocritical to the Jedi way as I see it, to defend those who are unable, nothing more unable then being dead but the whole premise would be burdening the victim anyway. The same thing with oppression, it can take many forms so the concept of avoiding it entirely seems to be falling down a rabbit hole. Rules are not 'bad', they are either appropriate or not, depending on the values of that community.

But if that is the way it is - as I mentioned then I reckon we (Jedi) perhaps need to assess the purpose of posting it against the effect of posting it. And to measure that means looking beyond our own reaction, considering the victims themselves, the wider community, and if there is not a less potentially harmful way to communicate the original message. I think Ob1 was lucky ren saw it first, otherwise a different Mod probably would have deleted it as there is scope in the rules IMO for that.

Anyway, here are the full Temple rules which the site will not let us look at currently;

Warning: Spoiler!

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 7 years 1 month ago by Adder.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Wescli Wardest, Avalon, Zenchi, OB1Shinobi

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 weeks ago - 7 years 3 weeks ago #279304 by OB1Shinobi
daesh (isis) was a front page topic here a little while back, and every time that topic came up, someone always introduced the relativistic idea that isis are "doing the right thing from their own point of view" or even that "lions are only evil from the perspective of gazelle" as if this were a relevant or useful way to think of human beings

one of the crucial points in the arguments that i use about how we should judge daesh is their embrace of rape and sexual enslavement as tools for recruitment and conquest, which is well documented form countless international sources and the personal testimony of survivors. and even with the undeniable evidence of these atrocities, STILL people respond with the moral and cultural relativism that minimizes the brutal reality of these kinds of acts

personally, i think that this sort of relativism is only possible for people who are either essentially sociopaths, incapable of grasping the reality of the suffering of others, OR they are people who dont really understand the topic in a real and immediate way.
people who read the words but dont process them for what they really mean. people who should see, directly, what the rape and enslavement of little girls actually is, so that they can be properly informed of the implications of their relativity

again, some people find me offensive for this way of thinking, but i dont care. i find the actual victimization to be offensive, not the honest discussion of it.

i agree that many victims would not want their moments of suffering to be replayed, but what i would counter that with is the suggestion that sometimes what the victims want is for the world to see what is happening so that someone might take it seriously and do something to end it

People are complicated.
Last edit: 7 years 3 weeks ago by OB1Shinobi.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 weeks ago #279308 by Tellahane

OB1Shinobi wrote: daesh (isis) was a front page topic here a little while back, and every time that topic came up, someone always introduced the relativistic idea that isis are "doing the right thing from their own point of view" or even that "lions are only evil from the perspective of gazelle" as if this were a relevant or useful way to think of human beings

one of the crucial points in the arguments that i use about how we should judge daesh is their embrace of rape and sexual enslavement as tools for recruitment and conquest, which is well documented form countless international sources and the personal testimony of survivors. and even with the undeniable evidence of these atrocities, STILL people respond with the moral and cultural relativism that minimizes the brutal reality of these kinds of acts

personally, i think that this sort of relativism is only possible for people who are either essentially sociopaths, incapable of grasping the reality of the suffering of others, OR they are people who dont really understand the topic in a real and immediate way.
people who read the words but dont process them for what they really mean. people who should see, directly, what the rape and enslavement of little girls actually is, so that they can be properly informed of the implications of their relativity

again, some people find me offensive for this way of thinking, but i dont care. i find the actual victimization to be offensive, not the honest discussion of it.

i agree that many victims would not want their moments of suffering to be replayed, but what i would counter that with is the suggestion that sometimes what the victims want is for the world to see what is happening so that someone might take it seriously and do something to end it


I don't think anyone finds the discussion on it offensive, I just think we need not graphic examples unless we truly ask and seek for them.

Do me a favor ob1 if you wouldn't mind indulging me, I know you stated at one point you would respond to my post but I think you were overwhelmed by so many responses you didn't get a chance to get back to mine. I would like to know your personal view on the following post I made below:
https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/member-discussions/117732-international-women-s-day?start=20#277943

And then after that I simply have one question for you, despite everything happening over there and specifically what you are trying to bring awareness about, I want to know what YOU, ob1shinobi, are planning to do about it?

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 weeks ago #279310 by OB1Shinobi
i did forget about your other post. youd like a response to it and thats fair, it will be the next response that i make.

as for your question, i know youve expressed the idea that its not worth talking about issues unless we have some definite plan of action on how we personally can change them

thats an idea that i dismiss out of hand. these discussions that we have here are one small portion of what i like to call "the cultural dialogue"
this dialogue allows people to explore all manner of topics and ideas, and that exploration leads to a greater depth of ubderstanding for everyone involved (or it c
should and could as long as people dont shut cit down because they are offended)

its perfectly reasonable for any person to bring any topic into the cultural dialogue. involve yourself with these topics if youre interested in them and dont if youre not.
obviously you are free tothink that its not my place to bring these thibgs up unless im on my way to saudi arabia or iraq, or wherever, but youre not going to get much agreement from the internet in general

People are complicated.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
7 years 3 weeks ago #279311 by Tellahane

OB1Shinobi wrote: i did forget about your other post. youd like a response to it and thats fair, it will be the next response that i make.

as for your question, i know youve expressed the idea that its not worth talking about issues unless we have some definite plan of action on how we personally can change them

thats an idea that i dismiss out of hand. these discussions that we have here are one small portion of what i like to call "the cultural dialogue"
this dialogue allows people to explore all manner of topics and ideas, and that exploration leads to a greater depth of ubderstanding for everyone involved (or it c
should and could as long as people dont shut cit down because they are offended)

its perfectly reasonable for any person to bring any topic into the cultural dialogue. involve yourself with these topics if youre interested in them and dont if youre not.
obviously you are free tothink that its not my place to bring these thibgs up unless im on my way to saudi arabia or iraq, or wherever, but youre not going to get much agreement from the internet in general


Well then I think it comes down to context of how that conversation is portrayed, if you want to discuss the concepts of other religious beliefs then sure I agree, but if your post is entitled and for the purpose of bringing awareness to something that is going on that needs changed, that is more often then not even in the internet in general, with the intent that there is a serious problem that needs dealt with, so my issue is only in the area of people who talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Moderators: ZerokevlarVerheilenChaotishRabeRiniTavi