About THAT video and what it means to "Build Up"

Zenchi wrote: This is a church....

The argument youre using here goes like this: "you cant do that here because this is a church and (other) churches dont do that"

But then youre arguing the exact opposite of that idea when you say:

Zenchi wrote: And you would expect the same of a Jedi church?

In order to be intellectually consistent, you have to choose either the principle of conformity to established convention, OR you have to choose to allow the freedom to tread new territory.
I know that youre very committed to this community and that you value the people here, and im pretty confident that if you really had to choose between these two principles, you would choose to allow totjo the freedom to defy convention and delve into "unchurchlike" territory if thats where it seemed appropriate to go.

There is something of a middle ground between the two ideas when we appeal to the purpose of totjo specifically, which leads us to the next point..

Zenchi wrote: You also seem to think that this is a dojo, and you're wrong about that....

If it were called Jedi relaxing then I would be able to concede this point, or at least some of it, but its called Jedi training, and thats what dojo meant are for. Places of training.
Communities offer more than any one single thing to their members, so i can grant that it isnt ALL dojo, ALL the time, but if one of the purposes of this community is to produce Jedi, then youve got to admit it is at least partly dojo at least part of the time.

Zenchi wrote: Perhaps it is you, that is in the wrong place... [/color]

Sometimes i do feel like i am in the wrong place when i come here. Often i can see my opinions, and the ways that i express them, are unpopular and unwelcome. The most useful lessons that i am learning (or attempting to learn) through this community have to do with tact, sensitivity, and the ability to recognize when im being unfairly obtuse on the one hand, (the truth of which has been and continues to be a difficult and unpleasant realization on my part) and the courage to remain authentic and outspoken even when im unpopular and unwelcome, on the other.

Magnus Staar wrote: I don't feel a need to patronise anyone here.

does it ever seem that some feel the need to be patronized?

Tellahane wrote: I just want to clarify my stance on a few things here.

1. Of the minors that are on here, there are some that are likely here without parents knowledge or permission, so we don't and can't guarantee that we know for any given minor at this temple what the parents are willing to let them see or not see.

experiencing the consequences of breaking your parents rules is part of childhood. kids are tougher than your words would indicate and i have faith that the kids who find themselves here will have the resources they need to handle what they find. There another element to why i say that which i bring up a little further down in my response to Proteus.

Tellahane wrote: If we wish to respect the individual wishes....

hell no i dont lol - respect the individual wishes of an infinite number of hypothetical people? no thats not a rabbit hole im jumping into

There is a minors area; that's where the minors belong.
children invariably decide to step out of the restrictions that their parents set for them. That often leads to all kinds of anxiety but its an important part of growing up, because its how we learn to be responsible for ourselves.

You do things that youre not supposed to do and then suffer the consequences of a set of results that you didnt consider; thats where wisdom comes from. I dont equate a youtube video with a loaded gun. Maybe VAGUELY similar to a swimming pool; we take the precautions of fences to keep infants out of swimming pools, but even so, every now and then an infant finds its way into a swimming pool and drowns. As a society we have decided to prevent infants from reaching the water, but weve also decided that its important to keep the water.

Children who are just big enough to be allowed to go to the pool without an adult hovering directly over them may not yet be able to actually swim in the deeper end, but generally we give them credit that theyre big enough not to die either. And look i grew up in the water and i can tell you that it was a process of starting at the shallow end and then working my way out. That was something i had to be allowed to do.

Magnus Staar wrote:

Zenchi wrote:

Magnus Staar wrote: I remember the horror of entering a Catholic church as a boy, to witness front and center a tortured man, bloody, beaten and nailed to a cross.

You would expect the same in a Jedi church?

What I expect is irrelevant to my point, which is Jesus on the cross is not about gratuitous violence, but the very visceral connection to sacrifice and salvation. The horrible imagery serves a purpose. Likewise here.

Exactly. The purpose (i would suggest) was to make it real. It doesnt really mean anything when its just words; your body itself has to understand it. Your deep psyche has to really get it, and that doesnt happen by simply reading a basic description.

And on the note, if they had had smartphones 2000 yrs ago then id expect that there would be ginormous pasma TVs over every podium in every christian church in the world, showing us the whole thing: the ministry, the miracles, the trial and conviction, the carrying of the cross, the whippings, the crown of thorns, the crucifixion, the spearing, and Jesus's death itself, on an endlessly replaying loop, so that we could witness the reality of the those events every single time we entered the building.
The reason we dont get those real life images in churches is very likely because they werent capable of capturing and reproducing them.

Tellahane wrote: an Idol as representation from an event is the same as reading it as a text or anything else, its still a very different then then seeing the actual event itself.

Avalonslight wrote: I was going to say the same thing. There's a very drastic difference between a piece of sculptural work and a video recording. Symbolic vs actual event.

Which is actually part of my point; Im not suggesting we should flood ourselves or each other with death and violence. Not at all. What I am saying is that from time to time we need to see them as they really are. You really dont understand it if you havent ever seen it.

elizabeth wrote: The video is reality and no offence but it is also an important reminder that while we celebrate womans day with pictures of fluffy animals others are still dying because they dont have rights. Men and women.

thanks, thats kind of how i thought of it too

elizabeth wrote: I happen to find the fluffy content here more disturbing

another black sheep! (((hugs)))

Trisskar wrote: Perhaps next time Ob1 could remember to use the spoiler tags and leave a one of them fancy disclaimers above it You know....for all the squeemish folk around here. Or those under age.

Trisskar wrote: Asides that. What is done is done....move along, move along.

You know how opinions are lol
Easy to form and hard to change and theyre probably all set by this point, but i did promise replies!....

JamesSand wrote: Edit: :] {¬_¬}
Some smileys so I don't seem so serious

Dont worry James no one here takes you serious

Kidding! You just sort of showed up one day cracking jokes and more or less making sense lol
Youre all right in my book buddy

elizabeth wrote: Whow people really need a sense of humour here..

Kohadre wrote: Yeah, it's not like there's anything to loose our heads over....:dry:

lol, thats what i said!
People didnt find it funny when i said it either, but i understand where youre coming from

Proteus wrote: This is just a reply upon reflection of OB's opening post, and I realize that this could likely get lost in all the noise going on here if not even just turned around and shot with holes for the convenience of someone else's views...

I don't believe the purpose of this temple is to promote some idea of the cold harsh dangerous world out there. I think the manipulation of the news media gives plenty enough of that. It would be insulting to a place like this to run what we are learning in that direction. This isn't to say however, that we deny the existence of the dangers that do exist - OF COURSE. We would be fooling ourselves to try to ignore or deny it.

The danger with focusing on these kinds of things though, is that it fosters feelings and perceptions toward our world (resentment, paranoia, anger, hatred, ignorance, etc) in which created the very dangers that we might be threatened with in the first place, and I can't see this temple ever wanting to be in the business of creating some continuation of that.

That said, when it comes to what we are learning here, I believe what we are aiming to learn about and become aware about has more to do with the inner world of ourselves than it does the outer world out there. Again, this isn't saying that the outer world is ignored because we absolutely must acknowledge and develop an appreciation toward the outer world. However, the reason why the priority ought to lie on the inner world among that, is because it is the inner world that we have any control over, and it can only be through what we develop in the inner world that can allow for any kind of influence in the right direction toward the outer world.

This must mean that we have to take more consideration toward the "inner worlds" of others around us. If we're not, we can easily end up stranding someone out into the same outer-world perception of reality that ultimately leads to the place your run-of-the-mill terrorist is made from. These are not the kinds of matters that we can dictate what is good for someone else. You don't really know. You can only speak for you because you don't know what kind of mental or emotional state other people at this temple are in. There are some of us that are very vulnerable going through their training, having crisis of identity, of faith and spirituality, and more. If you throw the "cold harsh reality of the outer world" out there in front of their eyes at the wrong time, it could be devastating, and set them back or even worse, sideways, to a very destructive place (and I don't mean "destructive to be constructive" either).

So I would like to ask that before you think you know what is good for the temple (and what you think this temple ought to be for), please have some consideration for the people around you and what you really don't know about them.

Proteus, this was an excellent post. Not only did you make good, thoughtful points, but you demonstrated that youre a person of compassion and sensitivity towards others. I respect that, even if it seems i am less sensitive myself.

It took me a while to figure out how to respond to you because i dont really agree with your conclusions, but i agree with (and respect) your thoughtfulness and the principle/s that your conclusions rest upon; the aforementioned compassion and sensitivity. I want you to know that you kind of stumped me here for a while, and i mentally rehearsed several different replies before i came to this one. Even now im not sure ive got it completely right, but this is what ive got.

The short response is that im not suggesting we FOCUS on the cold hard world, only that we acknowledge it without flinching or hiding or accepting the idea that its too much for us.

theres no way that i can know what i dont know about an infinite number of potentially unstable people who may or may not be clicking on any given video.

Im working off of the premise that the purpose of totjo is to train Jedi. And i dont think that theres anyway to make that safe or comfortable. I think if we did make it safe and comfortable it wouldnt be real training. I assume that jedi training is difficult, requires courage, and is meant to foster resilience. if these assumptions are correct, then i think that "we're too frail to handle this" is absolutely the WRONG message to give to aspiring Jedi.

Also, this stuff is out there in the world, and those people that you fear are too sensitive to handle it, theyre going to encounter it anyway. You cant prevent that. But here at this temple there is an amazing and diverse community of really wonderful people who i am certain are able to offer (even through the medium of online text) the insight and support necessary to understand and process such material. Its not possible to avoid real life, or to protect anyone from it. So in lieu of offering safety and shelter, its within the purview of this community to (occasionally) expose people to the harsher elements of life in a way that is fairly controlled, and from within a context of communal support. The lessons that a sensitive person can learn by exploring this kind of thing here within in this community are such that they could be the difference that prevents an emotional collapse when faced with the harder elements of reality in their actual lives.

Adder wrote: To simplify it, being mindful for the vulnerable is not a weakness, it is a strength.

Youre right Adder,, and i dont deny that have a character weakness of being too insensitive sometimes. Maybe this was a time where i was not as sensitive as i should have been. But maybe i also bring up some valid points.

OB1Shinobi wrote:
Im working off of the premise that the purpose of totjo is to train Jedi. And i dont think that theres anyway to make that safe or comfortable. I think if we did make it safe and comfortable it wouldnt be real training. I assume that jedi training is difficult, requires courage, and is meant to foster resilience. if these assumptions are correct, then i think that "we're too frail to handle this" is absolutely the WRONG message to give to aspiring Jedi.

Also, this stuff is out there in the world, and those people that you fear are too sensitive to handle it, theyre going to encounter it anyway. You cant prevent that. But here at this temple there is an amazing and diverse community of really wonderful people who i am certain are able to offer (even through the medium of online text) the insight and support necessary to understand and process such material. Its not possible to avoid real life, or to protect anyone from it. So in lieu of offering safety and shelter, its within the purview of this community to (occasionally) expose people to the harsher elements of life in a way that is fairly controlled, and from within a context of communal support. The lessons that a sensitive person can learn by exploring this kind of thing here within in this community are such that they could be the difference that prevents an emotional collapse when faced with the harder elements of reality in their actual lives.

I'm going to make a point here, and the gut reaction is that I'm going down the path of age appropriateness, thats not the point I'm making, but rather a timeline within the training process itself, keep that in mind when I say the following.

By your example if I'm understanding it correctly there shouldn't be any shielding of knowledge, and to that point I CAN agree, however as I've stated before there is still a TIME and PLACE for it. You don't take a 6 year old and show them a video of someone murdering another because you don't want to shield them, you don't do it because at their point in their lives of understanding the world(or read as a Jedi is in the very beginning of their training process), they may not understand fully yet the concepts of right vs wrong, of what is allowed or not, they may think anything is fine you just get a week grounding or something.

So to explain that better, there are base concepts within being Jedi that we all have to not just read and learn but apply to ourselves and get into a form of repetition to how we think and perceive the world. It's not that I want to shield you from seeing the real world is I want you to be prepared to handle it first. I didn't like originally the fact that apprenticeship has its own secret forums and then knighthood has its own and so forth on the way up but I do think there are some concepts that shouldn't be hidden for the sake of being hidden but shouldn't be approached until one is ready. You don't take a kid of the street and put them behind the wheel of a car until they have had basic drivers ed. There are knowledge's in this world that one needs to be ready for first. That's the point I want to throw out at this juncture.

Tellahane wrote: You don't take a 6 year old and show them a video of someone murdering another

I was not aware that 6 year old's were even allowed here on the forums. Considering how regulated 16 and 18 year old's are here...I would think 6 is a huge no no.

See.....My point is. You all (those against the video) are behaving as if this forum is over ran by sweet innocent little children. Last i recall. We are all adults here. And those who are considered "Minorities" SHOULD be no less than 13 years old.

Put Spoiler tags on videos like that. Put up a disclaimer. Those are reasonable suggestions and expectations.

But I think we should stop insulting the temple members here and treating them like toddlers I think we can all agree that Jedi no matter your belief or stance - Understands that an online forum will have all flavors of learning and methodologies. Such is the way with holding to no unified standards.

Trisskar wrote:

Tellahane wrote: You don't take a 6 year old and show them a video of someone murdering another

I was not aware that 6 year old's were even allowed here on the forums. Considering how regulated 16 and 18 year old's are here...I would think 6 is a huge no no.

See.....My point is. You all (those against the video) are behaving as if this forum is over ran by sweet innocent little children. Last i recall. We are all adults here. And those who are considered "Minorities" SHOULD be no less than 13 years old.

Put Spoiler tags on videos like that. Put up a disclaimer. Those are reasonable suggestions and expectations.

But I think we should stop insulting the temple members here and treating them like toddlers I think we can all agree that Jedi no matter your belief or stance - Understands that an online forum will have all flavors of learning and methodologies. Such is the way with holding to no unified standards.

you apparently missed over the first sentence of my disclaimer "I'm going to make a point here, and the gut reaction is that I'm going down the path of age appropriateness, thats not the point I'm making, but rather a timeline within the training process itself, keep that in mind when I say the following."

meaning I was using it as a point of reference in time not a point in reference of age..

Tellahane wrote: ...but rather a timeline within the training process itself, keep that in mind when I say the following.

Ok, let's have it: whom do you think here is age appropriate but does not have the adequate training to deal with the materials provided?

Not enough book-reading about pools before you jump into the pool? Between the books and the pool, the pool is the better teacher.

A person can be training themselves to build strength from a place of vulnerability but disclaimers and warnings are there to achieve that buffer as a rule, but the thread was not about capital punishment or the Saudi criminal system, so discretion can exceed those types of disclaimers when the impact is not required (by the poster). I tend to agree that normalizing the viewing of real murder is not a good habit for anyone, so it did not seem justified to post IMO, but the rules determine what is appropriate and the rules are probably created to shape the limits of behaviour here, so its up to the members to manage their own expression within the rules, and reaction about the rules to help define their future.

Magnus Staar wrote:

Tellahane wrote: ...but rather a timeline within the training process itself, keep that in mind when I say the following.

Ok, let's have it: whom do you think here is age appropriate but does not have the adequate training to deal with the materials provided?

Not enough book-reading about pools before you jump into the pool? Between the books and the pool, the pool is the better teacher.

You can throw someone in the pool and they might be able to learn in a hurry how to keep themselves afloat, doesn't mean I trust them to grab me and pull me out if I'm drowning from a cramp or heart attack or something else.

The pool reference is great, but its just for the basics, doesn't mean they are an olympic swimmer, that still takes a lot more time and practice. You don't throw someone in the pool and then send them out to compete with 20 year swimming veterans...

Magnus Staar wrote: Not enough book-reading about pools before you jump into the pool? Between the books and the pool, the pool is the better teacher.

Indeed the pool is the better teacher, but one would normally start of in the shallow end, with armbands and/or a float rather than throwing one's self straight in at the deep end, right?