About THAT video and what it means to "Build Up"

Kohadre wrote:  
That's bullshit.

By "bullshit" do you mean that i am lying or only that i am wrong?
I assure you that I am being straightforward i.e. I am not lying. I may not be as right as I think I am, but im pretty confident that i am at least partly right in what i am hoping to convey 

Kohadre wrote:  
Myself, and many other members of TOTJO have firsthand experience and knowledge of the brutalities of life.  

Did those events ask you for your permission before they happened, or did they just happen regardless of how you felt about them? Wouldn't it have been nice for you if someone had prepared you for such things before hand, rather than you having to just figure out how to cope with them on your own?

Kohadre wrote:  
What you did was a masochistic display in promoting the suffering of others to further your own agenda.

I am promoting the importance of understanding suffering as it really exists in the world. I am promoting that because I think its necessary to do that in order to prepare for it and I definitely think its the forte of someone who aspires to be a Jedi.
Im promoting the idea that "building people up" does not mean blowing smoke up their ass and pretending that everything they do is perfect, and that life (and the Force) is all sprinkles and moonbeams.

"Agenda" is at heart just a set of things you want to accomplish or a set of ideas that you believe in -- we all have an agenda and our agendas are present in everything that we do, so "furthering your own agenda" is not, in and of itself a statement with any real meaning.

Kohadre wrote:  
I've seen people die in front of me before, and it's not something anyone needs to witness first hand in order to fully comprehend the oppression and prejudice that certain groups face around the world.

Ive seen people die in front of me too. The first one was my dad at the age of 13 (I was 13, he was older) There have been several since. Ive seen someone shot in the neck, ive found the corpses of friends and ive woken up still cuddling with my dead girlfriend (she was alive when we went to sleep) Blah blah blah. Many others have seen much, much worse, and to say that you've seen people die right in front of you isn't really saying much because death is pretty common. Its actually the most normal thing in the world since everybody does it.

I'm have to disagree with your assertion that it isnt necessary to see it in order to understand (but I'm not ONLY talking about the oppression that certain groups face). It seems self evident to me that if you want to understand something then you do have to actually see it, or else you have to see something which closely enough approximates it so that youre not just relying on your own fantasy, and this definitely includes death, and brutality.

If you had said that you wish that you could protect people from having to understand these things, then id say that I empathize with your desire. But we cant protect people from that, and sheltering them for too long will actually cause more harm than it prevents.

Kohadre wrote:  
Death, violence, and bloodshed should never be normalized or made into a form of casual entertainment.

Death, violence, and bloodshed are normal.
In the modern world weve created systems where these things are less common, but death and brutality are default conditions of nature and are fundamental and immutable components of the human experience.

I'm not talking about using death for entertainment. I personally cant stand watching simulated violence in movies and tv shows. When it is completely phony i find it just stupid, but when it is even close to realistic i feel offended that people would resort to using it as entertainment and in order to sell a movie. Like theyre celebrating the ruination of people without being honest about what it really means.

Xiam wrote:  

temple
noun
4. an edifice erected as a place of public worship; a church, especially a large or imposing one.

sanctuary
noun
1. a sacred or holy place.

Zenchi wrote: This is a church....

First a note on definitions: definitions change and evolve in order to keep up with reality. The reality here is that this community is treading new ground, and is going to have to make new definitions as it goes. Not everyone will appreciate or enjoy this conversation that ive started, but its potentially useful for the purposes of hammering out those definitions. 

The word "church" is a Christian term indicating a place of CHRISTIAN worship..
So, no, we're literally not a church.
At least, not until you agree to reinvent or expand on the definition of the word. 

The next one is a little more complicated:

sanctuary
noun
1. a sacred or holy place.

We could probably have an entire topic dedicated to exploring what "sacred" means and spend weeks simply reviewing material that's already been generated on the subject before even reaching thepoint where we could add something new - if theres even anything new that we could add, but that isnt necessary for the purposes of this topic. I'd point out that every conversation here is not a praise and worship conversation, and most of us prefer it that way.

The thing about a sacred and holy place is that you cant spend much time there, and the time you do spend there, you have to restrict your own Being into conformity with the solemnness of the place; youre not allowed to misbehave in the presence of the tabernacle.

So, maybe you think that TOTJO should be only a tabernacle, but that's missing some of the most important (functional) elements of what a church, or more accurately, a religious community, is. One of the principle needs that all churches have to attend to is the real life application of church doctrine- which tends to be sometimes loftily idealistic, often archetypal in its imagery or or meta-physical in its wording, and very often vague enough to be open to a multitude of (sometimes conflicting) interpretations.

What is the point of religious doctrine except that it develops the individuals within the religious community in such a way that they are competent people in the otherwise secular world? Maybe you believe in heaven and hell as real places in the afterlife, in which case youd say that the point of the church is to save souls by converting them to belief in jesus so they don't go to hell. I don't believe in hell and totjo doesn't teach hell as doctrinal truth, so I think the purpose (or one of the purposes) of this church is to offer a place of fellowship to people, where they can explore the conditions that are fundamental to the human experience and learn whatever it is that they need to know in order to get through that experience as effectively as possible.

A church is a community of people with a shared set of values and the shared mission of learning how to apply those values to real life. Among other things, this means delving into the mundane and the profane. We have to delve into them because most of our lives are spent in the mundane and profane world.

Xiam wrote: .. but... you don't have to teach someone to swim by throwing them into the deep end.

We werent the ones in the deep end, the people in the video were.
But we all eventually find ourselves in the deep end at some point in our lives, one way or another

That's all the replies ive had time for today. I have enjoyed reading what you've all said and I will post again if not tomorrow then Monday. I will of course be reading any other replies you make before then but it may take me a while to get to you.

Obi said : Now Marta is teasing me with whoopings hehe :woohoo: :blush:

Anyway, I promise that I'll be giving as well as i get! :evil:

You know you love it :woohoo:

But besides that , i lean to the part where i should protect others from seeing content like that because i feel it damages something , i cannot really put my finger on it , but there is a kind of selfrightsiousness about either posting something like that and being dead against placing it and that is , that people have to make up their own mind , explore and question things and not react out of impuls.

Think for yourself , dont think for me

That is roughly what i am trying to say

OB1Shinobi wrote: First a note on definitions: definitions change and evolve in order to keep up with reality. The reality here is that this community is treading new ground, and is going to have to make new definitions as it goes. Not everyone will appreciate or enjoy this conversation that ive started, but its potentially useful for the purposes of hammering out those definitions. 

The word "church" is a Christian term indicating a place of CHRISTIAN worship..
So, no, we're literally not a church.
At least, not until you agree to reinvent or expand on the definition of the word. 

The next one is a little more complicated:

sanctuary
noun
1. a sacred or holy place.

We could probably have an entire topic dedicated to exploring what "sacred" means and spend weeks simply reviewing material that's already been generated on the subject before even reaching thepoint where we could add something new - if theres even anything new that we could add, but that isnt necessary for the purposes of this topic. I'd point out that every conversation here is not a praise and worship conversation, and most of us prefer it that way.

The thing about a sacred and holy place is that you cant spend much time there, and the time you do spend there, you have to restrict your own Being into conformity with the solemnness of the place; youre not allowed to misbehave in the presence of the tabernacle.

So, maybe you think that TOTJO should be only a tabernacle, but that's missing some of the most important (functional) elements of what a church, or more accurately, a religious community, is. One of the principle needs that all churches have to attend to is the real life application of church doctrine- which tends to be sometimes loftily idealistic, often archetypal in its imagery or or meta-physical in its wording, and very often vague enough to be open to a multitude of (sometimes conflicting) interpretations.

What is the point of religious doctrine except that it develops the individuals within the religious community in such a way that they are competent people in the otherwise secular world? Maybe you believe in heaven and hell as real places in the afterlife, in which case youd say that the point of the church is to save souls by converting them to belief in jesus so they don't go to hell. I don't believe in hell and totjo doesn't teach hell as doctrinal truth, so I think the purpose (or one of the purposes) of this church is to offer a place of fellowship to people, where they can explore the conditions that are fundamental to the human experience and learn whatever it is that they need to know in order to get through that experience as effectively as possible.

A church is a community of people with a shared set of values and the shared mission of learning how to apply those values to real life. Among other things, this means delving into the mundane and the profane. We have to delve into them because most of our lives are spent in the mundane and profane world.

Wait... so... you don't think we're a church, but you also think we're a church?

I didn't mean to imply a church, though. Temple of the Jedi Order, yes? Here, let me try again .

a building devoted to the worship, or regarded as the dwelling place, of a god or gods or other objects of religious reverence.

Google definitions not good enough? Alright .

1 : a building for religious practice

Extension with Abrahamic faiths. Alright, let's go back to Dictionary.com

Word Origin and History for temple
n.
"building for worship," Old English tempel, from Latin templum "piece of ground consecrated for the taking of auspices, building for worship," of uncertain signification. Commonly referred either to PIE root *tem- "to cut," on notion of "place reserved or cut out," or to PIE root *temp- "to stretch," on notion of cleared space in front of an altar. Figurative sense of "any place regarded as occupied by divine presence" was in Old English. Applied to Jewish synagogues from 1590s.

Still upset by the application of Judaism? So am I, I know of Greek temples and Buddhist temples as well. Sacred places. Sanctuaries, yeah? Which is my point.

You don't bring someone into a Buddhist temple and hack their head off. And I'm pretty sure you don't go in banging pots. They've got their own things for sounds in there.

If you don't think a sacred place is for sticking around, then why stay? Why bring the outside world into it? And what of monasteries, or the priests who live in temples, shrines, cathedrals, whathaveyou?

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Xiam wrote: .. but... you don't have to teach someone to swim by throwing them into the deep end.

We werent the ones in the deep end, the people in the video were.
But we all eventually find ourselves in the deep end at some point in our lives, one way or another

I'm talking about an emotional/spiritual deep end. Maybe I should have given it another analogy?

Alright. Picture this, yeah? The world is an entire pool, yeah? You've got your parts of life where you can talk about blood and gore, like Halloween, horror films, parties for horror enthusiasts, shops for those kinds of things, discussions on movie makeup, mayyybe hospitals, etc., and that's the deep end.

Then you've got places where maybe it's not so great, like at the dinner table, or fancy parties, or libraries and gathering places for study and introspection (like TOTJO). That's the shallow end, where people are just getting comfortable, learning to swim, learning to hold their breaths underwater, learning to take breaths on the surface and not suck in a bunch of chlorinated water, just trying to wade around and enjoy themselves.

And you're shoving their heads underwater and taking offense when they get upset.

OB1Shinobi wrote: The word "church" is a Christian term indicating a place of CHRISTIAN worship..
So, no, we're literally not a church.
At least, not until you agree to reinvent or expand on the definition of the word. 

The majority of the active membership here including those on the council would disagree with you...

What's really doing my head in with this video is that it was posted to illustrate how meaningless and out of touch these feminist activities have become. Her voice isn't mine, and her voice isn't the voice of that saudi woman. Her voice is whiny.


And so is totjo's. Getting upset by a video shared by a member here, not by the fact yet another person got publicly executed. Calls to keep this place "sacred", not one asking how to lodge a complaint to the saudi embassy or own government or how to do anything else about it.


The closest thing to sacred here is the doctrine. Nowhere in it does it say a Jedi should not show what the unbelievers are up to. It does have quite a lot to say though and this thread is a perfect example of how some people have got no knowledge or understanding of it.

The video is unnecessary, when words should be enough.

I get that the 'message' is that society is so misogynistic that they need to be shocked into realizing it by seeing it, because they are too detached to experience disgust at only reading about it, but I also think humans are creatures of imitation and habit and that repeated exposure to the details of committing violence do serve to increase the chance of it being carried out..... and I know that sort of sentiment is the sort of thing which keeps statisticians employed.

Perhaps start easy and add detail as required, rather then starting at full resolution to shock. Trying to shock people ignores that the audience is diverse in experience, age and maturity to the extent that a significant portion could have an unneeded reaction to get your message across. To simplify it, being mindful for the vulnerable is not a weakness, it is a strength. Video's are only needed when words are not enough, so start with words and assess, would be my feedback about posting this sort of content.

I see your point, OB1, but I wonder to what extent seeing graphic images prepares someone for dealing with life. I am a bit of a horror enthusiast. But despite the horror films I've watched, I'm not any more prepared to deal with a Freddy Krueger or a zombie outbreak. Have seen lots of videos on painting, but it hasn't made me any better with a brush. And anyone familiar with the martial arts knows that seeing a throw or something in an MMA match doesn't teach you to do that throw or how to deal with it effectively. Only repeated practice can help there. And, it's all very good to ask "what if?" but there's a big difference between what we think we would do in such a situation and what we actually end up doing. Preparation for such events requires much more than seeing a video. That may be considered supplementary at best. I don't think that the TOTJO forum here can adequately prepare someone for, say, becoming a prisoner of war or similar extreme situations. Video of these events can be supplementary in a few ways, I don't think they're entirely useless. But just seeing a beheading on video doesn't, on its own, prepare you to deal with beheaders, or to be beheaded, and it is an entirely different experience than seeing the same thing in real life. Just like watching a boxing match is not much like seeing fistfights in real life.

Ren raises a point, it's one that I'm not quite sure about. It's my understanding that the Saudi government doesn't give a roasted rat's ass about this sort of thing, they're usually the ones committing the beheadings/murders. Complaining wouldn't do much good. The culture in the Middle East is... well, I'll be nice and say that it's different. I have my moral objections to it, and I'm sure that even raising those objections publicly while in Saudi Arabia could get me in a little bit/lot of trouble (depending on how loud I am about it). Ultimately, I don't think that anything you or I do is going to make a big difference in Saudi Arabia, and personally I don't have any plans to go there any time soon. Been to the Middle East once, it's not worth the cost of the plane ticket IMO, wouldn't go back if you paid me.

As far as posting videos of beheadings go, at worst I'd say it's distasteful. But that doesn't mean removing it is necessarily the best option. It's my understanding that most of us are adults here. There are some who aren't, but they're not immature babies, either. When I came across videos of beheadings, I wasn't 15 or anything like that. I was 8. It isn't some horrific traumatic experience to see violence on a screen, I can say that from experience. As a temple, TOTJO is supposed to promote a certain way of viewing the world, right? Namely, the religious/philosophical aspects of Jediism. If that is usurped by a single video of something that happens every day (unfortunately) then how can we possibly claim that our worldview is accurate or even useful? Jedi should have enough backbone to be able to handle seeing violent videos when they pop up.

If OB1 thinks he needs to post a graphic video in order to make a point, then I say he should go ahead and do it. Just throw some spoiler tags on there for the folks who browse while eating lunch and the problem is solved, right? Alternatively, it's my understanding that TOTJO does pay attention to members' ages, so if that's the issue then why not make mature spoiler tags? You know, ones that you can't open unless your account says you're 18 or older. If our community here on TOTJO can't handle seeing the things that happen in real life when they're shown for the purpose of making an important point, then our community has failed to bring together people capable of operating in real life. It may be distasteful to post such things in most discussions, but it's also distasteful to assume that your fellow Jedi can't handle seeing reality. Anyway, I figure spoiler tags are a good solution and self-censorship is far more just than authoritarian, forced censorship from a point of moral grandstanding.

Dude!
I feel that your post was exemplary, in the literal sense of the word i.e. that it is an example of what (i believe) Jedi should aspire to when drawing conclusions about issues and topics. Namely, to respect their/our emotional reactions and intuitions, but to also temper them with careful and rational analysis.
I do have a couple of points of contention with specific details, which i think will be explained in my other replies to other people, but i wanted to put this reply directly under your post and say thank you for making a real effort to honestly and fairly walk the line between competing points of view.

EDIT
(to no one in particular)
When i say to "walk the line between competing points of view" i dont mean to just assume that all points of view are equally valid and then identify whatever might be the middle ground between them. Many times, all points of view are not equally valid.
I meant more to look for whatever valid idea there might be in each point of view and give each of those ideas their fair acknowledgement