Misogynism

Khaos wrote:

ren wrote:

Adder wrote: As I've said in that other thread, feminism has elements of discriminatory action to achieve non-discriminatory outcomes, as the only way to redress imbalance in a sustained unbalanced system is to force a re-balancing - such as affirmative action.

Wescli wrote: If you have to stomp people’s feelings, ridicule others or argue an insane position… you’re probably wrong.

Seems wrong, yep.

Affirmative action is not a case of two wrongs trying to make a right. It's not a hard concept to understand, but it requires wanting to understand it.... otherwise no amount of explanation will make any difference.

In simple terms, from one perspective its a wrong vs a right, and from the other perspective its a right vs a wrong. Any discriminatory nature of affirmative action is a small influence to attempt to redress imbalance, and not some equal and opposite action. To assume its an equivalent counter action is ludicrous and unrealistic. I used those original words deliberately because it would highlite the banality, aggression and blindness of the misogynist argument to attack any possible perspective regardless how unrealistic it was.... and my point was proved. I'd say yipee, but its actually sad for me to see anyone committed to Jediism actually fight against efforts in the real world for gender equality.

When I was in 6th grade Catholic School I got in big trouble with the nuns for telling a joke about a nun who went fishing with eleven priests and came back with a big red snapper. That was many years ago. I can't even remember the punch line now.

Brenna wrote: I find that I am unsure of how to continue this discussion. I am aware that nothing I say is going to make any difference.

And yet it seems Im going to try anyway

As my history of contributions here would show I’m perfectly able to provide evidence to back up the examples I have given, but If I write long posts its is seen as evidence that I am part of a “unsatisfyable angry bunch of feminists.”

If I complaint that being touched in a sexual manner by strangers without my consent makes me uncomfortable, I am not “independent or strong”. Yet if I am independent or strong I am again part of the angry feminist bunch.

If I give personal examples of how I have felt discriminated against because of my gender (as requested) I am “whining”

If I give well documented examples of gender inequality skewed against women I am an “un-liberated mind.” One “shackled by feminist propaganda”.

If I cite the murder of infants (yes, already born children) and the mass selective termination of fetuses based solely on the fact that the child is considered worthless because it is female, my entire stance on abortion is called into question.

When I share an experience of being sexually assaulted, I am told to be “grateful” because I can at least prove it wasnt my fault, though my "fault" was called into quetion.

So really, there is no way for me to proceed. Anything I say will be dismissed as whining, manipulation or the result of my brainwashed female mind unable to deal with me not getting what I want. So I might as well wrap this up by saying, just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean it’s not happening, and do what is expected of me. Sit down, keep quiet and look pretty from now on.



Gisteron –I thought that is exactly what I was doing here…?

Also, as I have tried to explain several times, I am not defending feminism. I have said on this thread and others that I do not think it is ideal or that it is an adequate solution. I have said many times that I agree that there are many women who use the idea of feminism as a justification for their poor treatment of men. Just as I do not believe men are all perpetrators of sexism. I do not know how much more clear I could make that. I have had this conversation previously in other threads and in private on why feminism as it is, is not working.

I can give proof of stupid white men controlling a woman's reproductive choices in Texas. Look at the recent special legislative session.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/19/us/perry-signs-texas-abortion-restrictions-into-law.html

As far as the issue with the people getting fired for making jokes, she did get fired as well.

the reason she got fired was because she did not go through the proper channels.... You're not free to post pictures of people without their consent. Why do you think google blurs people's faces on streetview? It's an invasion of their privacy, and google can get sued for it.

A lot of people seem to do just fine with western women. If western women are so bad, why aren't all men avoiding them? Or why are so many people still getting married?

Why are families falling apart? Why are the divorce rates so high? Why are people increasingly avoiding marriage (except homosexuals)?
Family is recognized in many important documents as the building block of society. So many people for such a long time have been saying it. Were they wrong? Or are we wrong to ignore our failings?

When I share an experience of being sexually assaulted, I am told to be “grateful”

grateful you benefit from as much protection as you do.

As my history of contributions here would show I’m perfectly able to provide evidence to back up the examples I have given, but If I write long posts its is seen as evidence that I am part of a “unsatisfyable angry bunch of feminists.”

What did you expect? I ask you what feminism does and you pretty much answer with what it doesn't do.

If I complaint that being touched in a sexual manner by strangers without my consent makes me uncomfortable, I am not “independent or strong”. Yet if I am independent or strong I am again part of the angry feminist bunch.

Not at all. Ignoring the petty issues of private life to better focus on the greater issues: THAT is being independent and strong.

If I give personal examples of how I have felt discriminated against because of my gender (as requested) I am “whining”

Of course. you give examples of your misfortunes. I have experienced similar misfortunes. I do not whine about them. I do not use them to justify new laws and whatnot. You identify your misfortunes as being directly linked to sexism. Hal the stuff you talk about I experience everyday and not once have I blamed discrimination (gender or race) for it. So yes, I see it as whining.

If I cite the murder of infants (yes, already born children) and the mass selective termination of fetuses based solely on the fact that the child is considered worthless because it is female, my entire stance on abortion is called into question.

So, if women arent being given the right to abort any way they like, feminists complain.
If women are being given the right to abort any way they like, feminists complain.
If anyone involved in the proces of allowing, disallowing or restricting abortion is a man, feminists complain.

But feminists don't whine, right?

So really, there is no way for me to proceed. Anything I say will be dismissed as whining, manipulation or the result of my brainwashed female mind unable to deal with me not getting what I want. So I might as well wrap this up by saying, just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean it’s not happening, and do what is expected of me. Sit down, keep quiet and look pretty from now on.

Giving up so early? Can't stand the heat? If the other feminists are like that, no wonder they constantly lobby to pass new legislation that makes women look weak an in need of special physical and psychological protection.

Did you watch the edwina currie video I posted? She seems to be a perfect example of a strong, not-brainwashed, independent, not being manipulated, not whining, satisfiable, not angry woman.
Best bits are near the end. The comments on youtube seem pretty good too. "faith in women restored" comes to mind. And believe it or not, she's not young, doesn't dress provocatively, and doesn't have to write "slut" on her body or go bare-chested to get respect from the male audience.

I can give proof of stupid white men controlling a woman's reproductive choices in Texas. Look at the recent special legislative session.

www.nytimes.com/2013/07/19/us/perry-sign...ctions-into-law.html

I guess texan women cannot vote and had nothing to do with the current state of texan legislature?

Good night everyone. Tomorrow is a new day. Sleep well. All this will still be here. . Forever. :lol:

I feel I've benefitted from your posts Brenna. Just putting things out there gets me thinking about them when I otherwise might not. To be fair, I'm grateful to Ren for that reason aswell.

If Brenna posts something that has actual studied statistics about the oppression of women, it's brushed off as feminist propaganda. If she posts about her own experiences, it's brushed off as just a woman whining. She's right that it's impossible for her to form an argument that people don't just brush off as women accidentally speaking again.

No, individual experiences don't prove anything. Until so many people report the same individual experiences. That's a trend, and it's a problem in this case.

People should not have to get over being raped, sexually assaulted, or touched inappropriately just because other people might have it worse. Everyone always has a right to stand up against their oppression, even when others have it worse.

For some reason I threw this together. It might explain why people who are not effected by something seem to have a simplistic view of it... the concept just is not mature enough. It cross references a model of human development against this sort of issue;

Empowerment should not come by weakening others. Being a man of strength in no way relies on the abilities of women.