Misogynism

Brenna, if you are willing to defend and promote your position with or without an eventual persuasion by either side, I would love to debate you on this topic. If you agree to, feel free to contact me to discuss terms, rules and format (if there shall be any which I wouldn't prefer to be as strict as formal debates usually turn out to be...) as well as wether or not we'd make it private, released to the public or broadcast live to a TOTJO or unrestricted audience (with the live broadcast option being a hypothetical that would be contingent upon additional parties and thus a matter of arrangement afterwards). Since this appears to catch high interest among many members and yourself, I hope we can all benefit from a discussion of that sort.

Maybe we should let this thread chill for a few days?

It seems more like trying to win an argument than a discussion. :lol:

To make my point simpler to read: is this a display of misandry (hatred or dislike of men and boys)?:


“Sorry but a little boy who says he wants a career instead of getting married and having kids has had his childhood robbed.” [In context: children should be interested in earth worms]

“I realized all these guys were basically whores.” [In context: these guys would show interest and provide sex as long as there was money around]

“We’ve also reached a point where suicide is the main cause of death in young women. I wonder if being treated like sh*t all the time has anything to do with it?”

“I'm turned off by men who aren't [sexually] available... the priest, the professional man, the intellectual” [in context: a woman telling us what kind of men she likes]

Yes, Ren, those would be examples of dislike for men. However, you have to also look at the consequences of those ideas and beliefs that lead to those statements. When people believe those things about men, as they often do, nothing really happens. Maybe they'll hate men, but it doesn't have long reaching systematic consequences. When people think those things about women, it allows the continued oppression of women.

As far as affirmative action goes, it is sometimes necessary. If two people decide to have a race, but one starts a mile behind the other, the one starting behind will need some kind of extra help to make the race at all fair.

Feminism is not about advancing women. It is about dismantling the patriarchy. The patriarchy, while generally benefitting men, does sometimes have negative consequences for men. Dismantling it will help everyone. Feminism focuses on women because women have more to lose if it fails.

For anyone who says you should just ignore words: That works on an individual basis. But when the general beliefs of society are that one group is lesser than another for no reason other than circumstances of birth (such as gender), those beliefs are reflected in words. Those words, in turn, reinforce the belief. So words can have significant power, and when they are being used to oppress people, it is no longer a case of personal offense.

I dont know. I have been married for 17 years. I asked my wife today if I was a misogynist.

She said "No, your just a jerk."

I said "....Yeah, thats about right."

I also know that when people are sensitive to something, they tend to see things that arent necessarily there in a certain sense.

I knew this guy who was african american in highschool, and he saw racism everywhere.

Even when it truly wasnt.

He was very ready to be offended and respond with well, the way schoolkids reactions are nowadays, rhetoric isnt such a bad thing I suppose.

To which, I am sure he had some experiences to justify his....philosophical? Paranoia, but it made him impossible to interact with on many levels and many subjects.

I think I am agaisnt "isms" in any way, shape, or form.

The oppression has been studied and can be clearly seen. Not just for women, but also for other oppressed groups. You can find some studies with very little effort.

The thing is, it's not just a case of either you're a feminist or you're the most misogynistic person in the world. You can say misogynistic things. You can be accidentally sexist. That doesn't mean you're a terrible person. It means you should be aware of what you're saying and make sure your words are in line with what you believe. It's hard to do in everyday interactions, but it's ridiculously easy on a forum where you have time to type and edit your words before hitting submit.

Yes, oppressed people sometimes see oppression where there is none. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the majority of cases they point out.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say you don't believe in isms. That sounds to me like you don't want people to label their oppression because then we might have to actually examine ourselves and admit that we benefit from the oppression of others even when we don't mean to. I'm not sure if that's what you mean, but that's what I'm hearing.

I do not believe words should be ignored, I believe we shouldn't take easy offense to them. The initial sentiment of offense may arise, but it shouldn't be fed.

Misogyny isn't a case of just being offended. It is words that express the belief that women are lesser than men. This belief isn't isolated. It is societal, and it has real consequences for women and men who are perceived to be feminine. Words aren't just random. They signify our belief systems, which affects the way our society runs. If someone says they don't like my haircut or they think my nose is weird, that's not a big deal. If people say women are teases and they are to blame for what is wrong with men, and enough people say this and believe it (as is the case), women are treated as if they are what's wrong with the world. They are raped at higher rates, discriminated against in employment, villainized for being sexual while disdained for not being sexual enough, etc. Those are just some of the real consequences that come from those words.

Again, I do not advocate ignoring words. I advocate not reacting to things from a place of anger.

Yes, Ren, those would be examples of dislike for men.

I think this would explain why I have little faith in the future of western society.

I cannot comprehend how worries about children not being children, or women's suicide rates being high, or men supplying sex in exchange for money, or a woman expressing her distaste of certain types of men has anything to do with the dislike of men (or men feeling disliked). It is simply an individual enjoying conscious thought. I would consider any attempts to prevent or repress these ideas/speech as attempted human rights violations. And contrary to the Jedi teachings.

I will never prevent anyone from liking/disliking any kind of person.
I will never prevent anyone from caring about the education and welfare of children.
I will never prevent anyone from enquiring/caring about ill or suicidal feelings in others.
I will never prevent anyone from openly calling things by their name or expressing their opinion about it.

And I will fight those who would seek to prevent either of those things. (I hope I don't need to explain why)