Misogynism

In the general sense of why feminism is still relevant in the world (or the original purpose of it at any rate)

Worldwide 1 in 3 women will be sexually or violently assaulted in their life time. And its estimated that less than 3% of rapists are convicted.

Girls are still taught (with increasing ferocity) by our society that the only thing that determines their worth is whether or not men want to have sex with them.

Of the 60 odd million children around the world denied basic education, around 65% are girls.

You know why so many women play the victim? Because many of them still are.

As a woman you get put in the position of choosing between being a good girl and playing the game, pretending to laugh at rape jokes and accepting that your sexual availability is the only thing that many men you meet are interested in, or focusing on your strengths and talents, working hard and being labelled a man hating feminist when you don’t appreciate strange men walking up to you, trying to put their hands between your legs or get a feel of your breasts. And that’s in the west where we are supposedly liberated.

Women are STILL advised not to report harassment in the work place for the sake of their careers and so that they aren’t labelled “difficult”

The rights a woman legally has over her body is still decided by a bunch of middle aged white men.

Female infanticide . Hundreds of thousands of abortions, or murder of female infants every year simply because girls are of less value than boys

Slut Shaming

Women are paid on average 25% less across the board for the same work as a man

The most offensive insults or swear words are related to women being inferior.

70% of people worldwide living in poverty, are women.

Being a successful or professional woman immediately draws criticism and judgement

Women are denied access to birth control because they have not “fulfilled their primary function to have children (true story)

Its considered acceptable and funny to tell an unmarried woman in her 30s that shes on the shelf, and seem surprised when she feels offended.

You asked how I’ve personally been affected by patriarchy (i prefer to use sexism as im not convinced that patriarchy is the right term for it)?

I’ve been called unreasonable and emotionally oversensitive for ending a relationship where my partner was cheating on me and not contributing financially to the running of our household leaving me tens of thousands of dollars in debt.

Three years ago I was attacked and assaulted by two men while walking home from a yoga class. The male officer at the victim’s interview office made a deliberate note in the case file stating “victim was wearing tight clothing at time of attack” and asked if I thought my underwear (which was exposed when they tore my shirt) was a factor in my attack as it “highlighted my shape.”

And while we’re on the topic, Ive been attacked or assaulted three times in my life. Once wearing my school uniform, once in my yoga clothes and once wearing jeans and a snow jacket.

I’ve been turned away from client meetings with men who “just don’t think a woman would understand the business”.

There is an automatic assumption that Ive used my looks or sexuality to get where I am in life.

I’m still told things like “Also, you have a big rack. That helps a lot when it comes to tensions. Change your profile pic for one that includes a mostly uncovered bust and see for yourself how people act differently “

Ive been told with no prompting or relevant prior discussion by men I barely know in a professional setting that i’ll have a better chance of finding a husband if I wore higher heels.

People still look at me like i’m mentally ill when I say I have no plans to have children.

Im still regularly called a stuck up bitch if I say no thank you to a date or a drink, and called a tease if I accept a drink and then don’t follow it up with an offer of taking things further.

Ive been told that its “inappropriate for me to sit in the front passenger seat when there’s another man in the car. Women in the back please”. Again, in a professional environment.

In job interviews I still get asked (even thought it’s actually illegal to inquire) what my marriage status is and if I have or intend to have children.

I have lost count of the number of times I have been out in public and men have felt that its ok to walk up to me and touch me inappropriately as a way to express their interest in me.

You may recall that in previous threads and (as you yourself have pointed out Ren) on my blog, I advocate for women to take responsibility for themselves and not indulge in the victim pity party man bashing that is so prevalent. I don’t believe that “feminism” in its current incarnation is ideal. And as I have said both publicly and privately, I don’t agree with the generalisation that all men are sexist or perpetuate the very issues that feminism was meant to fight. You have said yourself that in that regard, we share many of the same opinions on this.

My issue is that there appears to be undercurrent of sexism here that has made me concerned enough to bring it up. I’ve watched it slide time and time again without examination. I did not say that we should start attacking everyone that I think is a misogynist, I said we need to “stop to examine the ways in which we are continuously perpetuating this issue or why we are so horribly intolerant and judgemental on a day to day basis. “ And I’m certainly not denying that there IS man bashing that happens in the world as an “acceptable alternative” to actually understanding feminism, I’m saying that im uncomfortable with what Ive seen here.

Also, there is a huge shift in the way many educated feminists are approaching the equality issue, agreeing with and highlighting the fact that putting one down and elevating the other does not necessarily create equality.





Also
So when it suits you I disagree with affirmative action, but when it proves your point, I dont?
http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/General-Discussions/103980-feminism?start=50#109414

Well, I have not seen this sort of behavior around the Jedi-sphere but I'm sure its there, sadly. I have to say I'm a little appalled and surprised at the comments you've quoted here. This is shameful in any circle and even more so considering we are supposed to be Jedi. I've always been a supporter of feminism and the rights of women (likely because of my mother who has always showcased the strong, independent woman for us) and this kind of talk is just ridiculous. Come on guys, we can do better!

You go Brenna!

I support Ren in his stance against feminism.

I also support Brenna in her feminist stance.

I realize that they each have their own definition and examples of Jediism.

That, however, is not why I posted on this thread.

In my eyes the issue here isn't that some people are against feminism and some people are for it, the issue is over generalization and derogatory comments. Many of the anti-feminism comments are poorly stated and even disrespectful. While it might be good for everyone to see both sides of the feminism debate things often get personal and things are said that I would not expect to be said by someone claiming to be a Jedi.

It isn't your opinions that go against Jediism, it is how you are phrasing them and the fact that you over generalize too often.

Also when I go to the Doctrine of the Order, I don't only do it to prove a point. I don't choose when to follow it and when not to. I can't say that I remember the entire thing by heart, but that doesn't mean that I don't go back and check it and remember its value. I most definitely do not abuse the Doctrine. There are those who don't follow it and that it their decision, but I see Jediism as a religion that follows those tenants as a moral and philosophical background.

May the Fore be with you,
Rai

Raikoutenshi wrote: I support Ren in his stance against feminism.

I also support Brenna in her feminist stance.

I realize that they each have their own definition and examples of Jediism.

That, however, is not why I posted on this thread.

In my eyes the issue here isn't that some people are against feminism and some people are for it, the issue is over generalization and derogatory comments. Many of the anti-feminism comments are poorly stated and even disrespectful. While it might be good for everyone to see both sides of the feminism debate things often get personal and things are said that I would not expect to be said by someone claiming to be a Jedi.

It isn't your opinions that go against Jediism, it is how you are phrasing them and the fact that you over generalize too often.

Also when I go to the Doctrine of the Order, I don't only do it to prove a point. I don't choose when to follow it and when not to. I can't say that I remember the entire thing by heart, but that doesn't mean that I don't go back and check it and remember its value. I most definitely do not abuse the Doctrine. There are those who don't follow it and that it their decision, but I see Jediism as a religion that follows those tenants as a moral and philosophical background.

May the Fore be with you,
Rai

I was trying to find something to say in this thread, however was having difficulty with putting my thoughts into words. Raikoutenshi came as close as possible to what my thoughts were, and now I have something to add onto it.

Our minds are infinite, wondrous things. They are capable of immense wonders, at times indescribable by our limited human linguistics.

We struggle at times to put our thoughts into words, because there are at times, no words which fit our thoughts correctly, or even appropriately. Both Ren and Brenna have valid points to make in their arguments, however due to the limits of human language, they are not able to convey their thoughts with 100% accuracy.

I do agree with Brenna however, that the derogatory nature of some arguments against feminism must stop, as they go against everything our order is supposed to stand for. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with someones viewpoint, and debating them on it. There is something wrong however, for attacking someone for something they believe in, and have sacrificed in order to bring to realization.

I should amend my last statement about supporting feminism. I support feminism up to a point. When people are trying to make men and women the same, not equal but the same, I have to disagree. Yes, women doing the same job as a man should be paid the same (barring performance issues on either side). However, this whole namby-pamby wishy-washy gender stuff where men and women are considered exactly the same is bologna to me. We are biologically different and ALWAYS will be. Nothing can change that. We can be equal in rights and status, but we are not the same.

NOTE: Transgender issues are a separate thing and I agree that it is possible and somewhat common to be born feeling one is the opposite gender.

How about we just boil this down to the least common denominator and state that it is unbecoming of a Jedi to be derogatory in their remarks and that it is very becoming of a Jedi not to become offended at mere words?

We have a culture of debate here. Impossible to maintain if everyone carries the exact same position and understands eachother perfectly just as much as noone bothering to listen too anyone else and using any slight as an excuse to dismiss. This is not an accusation against any party. I cannot speak against generalizations because that would make me a hypocrite. Just look at this post. I can only say keep writing. Keep writing until your fingers bleed. Everyone benefits so long as they are looking to benefit from it.

My issue is that there appears to be undercurrent of sexism here that has made me concerned enough to bring it up. I’ve watched it slide time and time again without examination. I did not say that we should start attacking everyone that I think is a misogynist, I said we need to “stop to examine the ways in which we are continuously perpetuating this issue or why we are so horribly intolerant and judgemental on a day to day basis. “ And I’m certainly not denying that there IS man bashing that happens in the world as an “acceptable alternative” to actually understanding feminism, I’m saying that im uncomfortable with what Ive seen here.

You're right.

I do agree with Brenna however, that the derogatory nature of some arguments against feminism must stop, as they go against everything our order is supposed to stand for.

I too expect more from Jedi.

In the general sense of why feminism is still relevant in the world (or the original purpose of it at any rate)

I'm talking about western society. The rest of the world doesn't see a great deal of feminism, and western feminists seem more interested in their selfish interests than those of others, including non-feminist western women. So much for "focusing on women".

Worldwide 1 in 3 women will be sexually or violently assaulted in their life time. And its estimated that less than 3% of rapists are convicted.

Y-Yeah, so they say. There's a lot of statistics everywhere compiled in all sorts of funny ways saying all sorts of opposite things. What I see is that I live in a country where I cannot legally be raped by a woman. Conviction/arrest rates for female-on-male rape? 0% It's feminists who have made it clear that men can't be raped (or that all of them are rapists, we've seen guys losing their human rights for REPORTING indecent images to the authorities).

Girls are still taught (with increasing ferocity) by our society that the only thing that determines their worth is whether or not men want to have sex with them.

Still? Or since women's sexual revolution? Also, it's like that for guys too. That's one thing where genders are equals: fear of sexual inadequacy. Just ask Mick Jagger what pushed him to put bees on his willie (+1 willpower)...

Of the 60 odd million children around the world denied basic education, around 65% are girls.

Girls are less likely to start, boys are more likely to drop out... Either way, that leaves at least 35% of 60 million is 21 million... I cannot see how any "philosophy" purporting to be for gender equality and education could ever pretend that it's a goo idea to show the world that it's OK to educate a certain group and not the other. Want to educate kids? Send every single one of them to school. It's easier that way, it's not sexist, and everyone learns at the same time that everyone should be educated. 2 birds with one stone.

As a woman you get put in the position of choosing between being a good girl and playing the game, pretending to laugh at rape jokes and accepting that your sexual availability is the only thing that many men you meet are interested in, or focusing on your strengths and talents, working hard and being labelled a man hating feminist when you don’t appreciate strange men walking up to you, trying to put their hands between your legs or get a feel of your breasts. And that’s in the west where we are supposedly liberated.

Are you claiming that strange women don't exist? That women never touch guys? That guys don't get blamed for things they didn't do or might have done by accident? My breasts, ass and crotch have been touched by people who werent invited to do so. Heck, most recently the crotch by another guy who wasnt even gay. Didnt call the cops, didnt complain to anyone. It's easy not to be called a woman-hating "manist" when a girl touches you: Don't complain. That' what it's like to have a liberated mind, as opposed to one shackled by feminist propaganda. And yes, men are going to be romantically involved in you if you are sexually active. Otherwise your potential for being a plain mate (as in friend) depends on your other quality. The stuff guys put up with a woman they are romantically interested in, they wont put up with a regular friend... So there again, equality at its finest.

Women are STILL advised not to report harassment in the work place for the sake of their careers and so that they aren’t labelled “difficult”

And you know what? When there were no women in the work place, there was no sexual harrassment, and guys could a: talk about anything b: not worry that they might bump into someone at any moment resulting in them being dismissed... That's not making a career difficult, that's destroying it. And why? women want to work where men did, then complain about anything men do they slightly dislike. it's a bit like the toilet seat up/down thing. Some people want it to stay up, others want it down. At the end of the day complaining about will change nothing because someone will have to change the position of the seat no matter what.

The rights a woman legally has over her body is still decided by a bunch of middle aged white men.

Supply evidence.

Female infanticide . Hundreds of thousands of abortions, or murder of female infants every year simply because girls are of less value than boys

And there I was thinking you were pro-choice. you either make it legal or you don't.

Slut Shaming

People are entitled to an opinion. Including that being a slut is a good or a bad thing.

Women are paid on average 25% less across the board for the same work as a man

Again, prove it. There's evidence to the contrary.

The most offensive insults or swear words are related to women being inferior.

Again, prove your claims or provide examples.

70% of people worldwide living in poverty, are women.

And how has feminism helped them? In the US, Obama's jobs package got hijacked by the feminist lobby, which ended up creating service sector jobs for middle class women, while the lower class stay-at-home moms saw their husbands not only lose their jobs (industry is where the crisis hit hard), but the creation of new job opportunities that they couldnt access.

Being a successful or professional woman immediately draws criticism and judgement

Where and from whom?

Women are denied access to birth control because they have not “fulfilled their primary function to have children (true story)

Men are denied access to birth control because "it doesn't exist" (true story) and "it's my body not yours" (true story)

Its considered acceptable and funny to tell an unmarried woman in her 30s that shes on the shelf, and seem surprised when she feels offended.

So? Same story for guys. Solution? get rich. Agreed there's nothing funny about it but people are entitled to their opinions.

I’ve been called unreasonable and emotionally oversensitive for ending a relationship where my partner was cheating on me and not contributing financially to the running of our household leaving me tens of thousands of dollars in debt.

What on earth does this have to do with sexism? Are you sure you're not calling it sexism because you were wronged by a man?

Three years ago I was attacked and assaulted by two men while walking home from a yoga class. The male officer at the victim’s interview office made a deliberate note in the case file stating “victim was wearing tight clothing at time of attack” and asked if I thought my underwear (which was exposed when they tore my shirt) was a factor in my attack as it “highlighted my shape.”

Why go to the police at all? Of course they're going to ask questions and write facts down. I never went to them after being assaulted. They did ask me annoying questions even when I didnt want anything to do with them (and wasnt committing crime either)

And while we’re on the topic, Ive been attacked or assaulted three times in my life. Once wearing my school uniform, once in my yoga clothes and once wearing jeans and a snow jacket.

Assault sucks, but be grateful: at least you can prove you did nothing wrong. A guy who gets accused of anything by a woman always gets in trouble, and may even be wrongly incarcerated. Either way, what does this have to do feminism? Assault isn't legal if perpetrated against women last time I checked. Q: What do you think happens when a man reports being assaulted by a woman? A: He may be arrested, or laughed at. Like that guy who was viciously assaulted by his wife, and she ended up doing TV interviews while he was being mocked.

I’ve been turned away from client meetings with men who “just don’t think a woman would understand the business”.

I've seen job offers that were women-only

There is an automatic assumption that Ive used my looks or sexuality to get where I am in life.

I guess you can thank other women for that.

I’m still told things like “Also, you have a big rack. That helps a lot when it comes to tensions. Change your profile pic for one that includes a mostly uncovered bust and see for yourself how people act differently “

:lol: Is it a lie though? Besides, where's the sexism in saying that? And what does feminism have to do with it? Just because you don't like it doesnt make it sexist. A guy showing his 6-pack in his avatar would get some attention too.

Ive been told with no prompting or relevant prior discussion by men I barely know in a professional setting that i’ll have a better chance of finding a husband if I wore higher heels.

So what? It's either true or not true. Again I don't see where the problem is.

People still look at me like i’m mentally ill when I say I have no plans to have children.

OK I find that pretty weird. But since it's not all that common, I can't blame people for finding it weird either.

Ive been told that its “inappropriate for me to sit in the front passenger seat when there’s another man in the car. Women in the back please”. Again, in a professional environment.

And I've been called a bitch and called other bitches in a professional environment too. Not long ago I told someone "kids go at the back" when about to get in a car, in a professional environment. Would children find it offensive and turn to "childrenism" to protect their "rights"?

In job interviews I still get asked (even thought it’s actually illegal to inquire) what my marriage status is and if I have or intend to have children.

Same thing for men. They ask illegal things at job interviews. They're feeling lucky so they do it. What can I say? people do illegal things all the time.

I have lost count of the number of times I have been out in public and men have felt that its ok to walk up to me and touch me inappropriately as a way to express their interest in me.

Strangers have touched me to. I didnt turn to "manism".

You may recall that in previous threads and (as you yourself have pointed out Ren) on my blog, I advocate for women to take responsibility for themselves and not indulge in the victim pity party man bashing that is so prevalent. I don’t believe that “feminism” in its current incarnation is ideal. And as I have said both publicly and privately, I don’t agree with the generalisation that all men are sexist or perpetuate the very issues that feminism was meant to fight. You have said yourself that in that regard, we share many of the same opinions on this.

My issue is that there appears to be undercurrent of sexism here that has made me concerned enough to bring it up. I’ve watched it slide time and time again without examination. I did not say that we should start attacking everyone that I think is a misogynist, I said we need to “stop to examine the ways in which we are continuously perpetuating this issue or why we are so horribly intolerant and judgemental on a day to day basis. “ And I’m certainly not denying that there IS man bashing that happens in the world as an “acceptable alternative” to actually understanding feminism, I’m saying that neither of these things should be acceptable here.

Also, there is a huge shift in the way many educated feminists are approaching the equality issue, agreeing with and highlighting the fact that putting one down and elevating the other does not necessarily create equality.

OK. Well this is all very nice but your long post only shows one thing to me. You yourself see feminism as a tool to fight what men do or say. Things that I'm perfectly happy to live with (Not saying that I like them, simply that I can tolerate). I see nothing in your life that is different from mine (except for the children thing, but then again I have a kid), yet, you seem shocked, annoyed, and generally not happy. To me this shows feminists are an unsatisfyable angry bunch who make demands about pretty much every aspect of their lives that doesn't go according to the feminist ideal(s) I just laugh these things off or ignore them. the problems I could face, I already have a workaround, or a backup plan. that's what I call being "strong and independent". Nothing to do with whining to make people act the way I wish they did.



You claim in your original post you see sexism (misogyny specifically) in those quotes. I don't.



(And I was being sarcastic about affirmative action)

It is never wise to make light of the suffering of others.

Before criticizing the conclusions of others, find out how and why they came to their conclusions and then do the same for your own conclusions. Every person interprets things differently based on their own perspective and experience.

My advice would be to realize that being condescending while you debate leads to more resistance to new ideas in the opposite party. Both sides have stated many fundamentally correct points but sometimes the arguments become pointed and personal and harsh. It begins to become less about what is being argued and ends up being about how it is being argued.

When your goal is to win an argument you lose sight of the true spirit of debate: getting to the truth. It isn't about who is right or wrong but rather about presenting your information, receiving the rest of the information and coming to a brand new conclusion that you might not otherwise have seen.

May the Force be with you,
Rai