Misogynism

While it is important to respect the opinions of others, and also it is important to note ones own reactions, much of what is being stated (towards women and feminism) is downright discriminatory and sexist.

Whether it offends you or not, the bigger point is that it is in direct opposition with the Doctrine of the Order. That is why it is important that things like this be brought up, because when members of all ranks begin to act in opposition to the doctrine it threatens the harmony and camaraderie of our community.

May the Force be with you,
Rai

Hmm, and yet it's even been admitted by those who helped write the doctrine that they do not remember all of it. Nor hold to it.

In fact it seems quite the trend to poo poo doctrine,etc, or in some other way treat it lazily.

Funny thing about it is, how can you the cite it as if its some deeply held strictly abided thing?

Isn't that using(and abusing ) it when it convienient for you, or when it's offends the person citing it?

I simply think with a site that has so many "isms" flying about, someone's gonna step on someone else's at some point.

Still, it's good it can be discussed openly.

To hate feminism is not to hate women.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cSrX2FJ-Q8


To hate feminism is to hate this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnXCPcq_RTY


Another thing I don't like about feminism is when feminists do what you just did

"Sorry but a little girl who says she wants a career instead of getting married and having kids has had her childhood robbed."

Which is equally true for boys. I am very worried for any child that repeats any form of propaganda.I jut happen to never have seen a boy display such behaviour. (I'm even also against religious indoctrination of children.)

"I realized all these girls were basically whores."

It is indeed my belief that "these girls" who were giving me sex in exchange for my money were whores.

"We’ve also reached a point where suicide is the main cause of death in young men. I wonder if being treated like shit all the time has anything to do with it?"

Ah so now talking about the reasons behind the unbelievably high suicide rates in young men is feminism-bashing?

feminism: The belief that when men are mutilated by women, it's funny.
feminism: the belief that when men talk about men killing themselves because they're miserable, they're in fact being misogynist
feminism: The belief that when a man shows concern about children not being allowed to be children because of feminist propaganda, he is a misogynist
feminism: the belief that the men who gave women the right to abort, to contraception, to abandon their children at birth are chauvinistic pigs working for the exclusive benefit of men, despite the fact that they themselves do not have such rights.
feminism: the belief that the evil patriarchy has kept women from empowering themselves by staying at home instead of working at the coal mine 18 hours a day for 200 years.

feminism: quite literally, "focus on women". that's what it means. It has nothing to do with gender equality. that's the very definition. Perhaps I should add;
feminism: the belief that gender issues can be solved by promoting the issues of only one gender...


I also said this: "What feminism does is blame one group for the problems of another group, of which it pretends being the representative. Sounds familiar?"

By familiar, what I meant is nazi familiar. popular movement where one group of people feels oppressed by another group of people, and keep on feeling oppressed even when that other group of people has already been robbed of everything.

What I have been seeing is a group of very disgruntled men who have been rejected by women

Who's making generalisations now.

And most importantly I rewrote those "Jedi believe", knowing full well what they mean.

The only proper way to prevent gender, racial, or other issues, is to prohibit government and all its insitutions/agencies/spending programmes from discriminating on the basis of gender (race, sexuality, whatever) in anyway... (feminism does the opposite of that)

Make things so that there is no such thing as a "male citizen" or a "homosexual citizen" or an "asian citizen".

Racism and sexism, other forms of discrimination may still exist, but in the private sphere only. Corporations, individuals... And it is their right (freedom of conscience, religion, etc). But they only have that right on their own private property.

Which is completely in line with the entire doctrine.

However, considering your complaints I wonder if you've read much of the doctrine...

Jedi believe:
In the ethic of reciprocity
In the importance of freedom of conscience and self-determination within religious, political and other structures.

One thing I really can't stand about feminism is the whole victim game. Every single time someone plays that game, things turn sour.
If you believe the actions of feminists are good for society, please explain why. If you believe the "patriarchy" or MRAs are making your life worse than it could be, please explain why. But don't play the victim. I find it demeaning to the actually strong and independent women I happen to know and respect.

Here is a recent old thread where some people expressed their unique and varied views on what feminism means to them;

http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/General-Discussions/103980-feminism?limitstart=0&start=130

I think I can say the Temple does not define feminism as gender discrimination, despite the appearance of such in ren's edited quote box;

And most importantly I rewrote those "Jedi believe", knowing full well what they mean.

The only proper way to prevent gender, racial, or other issues, is to prohibit government and all its insitutions/agencies/spending programmes from discriminating on the basis of gender (race, sexuality, whatever) in anyway... (feminism does the opposite of that)
...

Which is completely in line with the entire doctrine.

As I've said in that other thread, feminism has elements of discriminatory action to achieve non-discriminatory outcomes, as the only way to redress imbalance in a sustained unbalanced system is to force a re-balancing - such as affirmative action. In my view (and others) feminism is for gender equality, but its focus to that is on women. So yea, if you hate feminists, then you hate women working for gender equality by helping women who do not have it... so it sounds pretty misogynist to me to pick on those women already suffering.

@ Ren.

12. Jedi believe that love and compassion are central to their lives. We must love and care for each other as we must love and care for ourselves; by doing this we envelop all life in the positivity of our actions and thoughts. We are providers and beacons of hope.

13. Jedi cultivate empathy. We try to view things from another’s perspective making us sensitive listeners. We provide the confidence people need when talking through their difficulties and we share our learning with those who would benefit. We do this to help create a more harmonious society.

Im not a fan of taoism, but that doesnt mean I hate all taoists. I detest buddhism, but this does not mean I detest all buddhists.


Hating feminism, does not mean you hate all feminists, though more than likely the ones that irk you will be women I would imagine.


I am wondering why this isnt being addressed with the same level of rational thinking, as many "isms" are discussed here, and not all always in a positive light.


Also, is it me, but are you advocating discrimination if the goal, not necessarily the actual outcome, but the goal is a balance?


Two wrongs make a right huh?


In regards to discrimination, force of any kind, hasnt actually been the best method of action to take.


From the movie P.C.U...Epic movie btw.


http://www.wavlist.com/movies/318/pcu-bring.wav

Frankly, the only difference between men and women is their respective gender and that is a significant difference indeed. The very reason humans have two sexes naturally leads to different roles, different behaviors and subsequently to different stereotypes, too, none of which is unjustified. Now which behavior or which roles a gender gets in a society is largely dependant on the society as well as on the species, but they will remain different and as long as our species keeps reproducing sexually there is no way around it.

Now, problems come about when one of the parties starts feeling to have any sort of upper hand and that the others are inferior humans. In the case that the females are the victims of this we call it misogyny. I'm not sure if there is a word for devaluing of men, too. I would be opposed to both and that is primarily motivated by my experience with people of both sexes that was outside of romantic or sexual relationships. I don't even need a spiritual belief to tell me that a human's worth is independant of its sex, but I would need something of a similar irrationality to claim that they are equal on all accounts.

In either case, popular feminism nowadays doesn't quite address misogyny but rather the entire feature of different roles based on sex and to be honest, I couldn't care less. People who don't realize there is a difference between males and females or who make themselves believe they can work around that somehow are to me exactly what they accuse some of us to be: Sexist. I could make the argument that focusing on the issues of one sex can't possibly indefinitely lead to equality between the two, but I don't even need to make that point. The fact someone seeks equality (as opposed to equivalence in value) between what has not been equal for hundreds of millions of years is enough of a testiment to the irrationality of the position that is essentially one of denial. Feel free to debate or to quote me on that.

Feminism used to be different. It also used to be needed. And it used to have a benefit to society.

Not necessarily right or wrong...

But, being a Jedi, would seem particulary a mans world...

I dont care, I welcome all...

But, it attracts men...

And, we are strong men, yet, compared to some of our brethren, because we care about these issues, we are not "manly men", especially if we were to talk about them with those brethren...

So, being a touch sensitive (in the mens club) to the world, we have been hurt by females, because our 'collective pain body' allows it...

I too hope I have not said anything derogatory about women...

And will step up my attention to my NOW, and make sure I do not...

Khaos" wrote: The chances are, you will statistically see something that offends you. However that, in many ways should be put under just as strong a microscope as those who have the opinions that caused offense no?

Agreed, and why we should not judge others for their ignorance...

And why Jedi (all people really) should have thick skin and not be to easily offended...

Although, it may appear I need a reminder (if not 'need' then well, it doenst hurt), lol, so I appreciate having one...

The moment we decide what something is, we have defined it. Something with a definition requires no further explanation. With no further explanation required, we stop trying to understand it any further.

I do not agree with or understand some things that have been written here(ALL topics) so I am thankful everyone keeps writing. I don't feel I could ever stop and say "thats that" with out wanting to read just a little bit more. I might be wrong, or missing the point, or it could be worse than I imagined. If I've already decided, I'll never really know.

This might help illustratemy point a littlemore..

http://comicsthatsaysomething.quora.com/A-Day-at-the-Park

Wescli Wardest wrote: @ Ren.

12. Jedi believe that love and compassion are central to their lives. We must love and care for each other as we must love and care for ourselves; by doing this we envelop all life in the positivity of our actions and thoughts. We are providers and beacons of hope.

13. Jedi cultivate empathy. We try to view things from another’s perspective making us sensitive listeners. We provide the confidence people need when talking through their difficulties and we share our learning with those who would benefit. We do this to help create a more harmonious society.

I have said before I view the western woman as a victim. When I say little girls who concern themselves with choosing between a career or having kids have their childhood stolen away from them, I see them as victims.

"I did not blame all western women. What I DO blame is feminism, and I know that many women are anti-feminists, and not all feminists are women."

that's right. I said some men are feminists. Is it still misogyny to despise feminism if men are involved in it? Was maggy thatcher a misogynist? What about all the other women who see feminism as a poison?

Or is it misogyny only if it's a man who doesn't like women-only laws?

Sexism works both ways Brenna, and you just did it yourself.

So, let's go back to the teachings.


"12. Jedi believe that love and compassion are central to their lives. We must love and care for each other as we must love and care for ourselves; by doing this we envelop all life in the positivity of our actions and thoughts. We are providers and beacons of hope."

Are feminists loving and compassionate? When one of their male leaders decided to focus on men's rights, were his former friends loving an compassionate? What IS loving and compassionate is to oppose any movement that has repeatedly acted for its own good at the expense of people not part of that group.

"13. Jedi cultivate empathy."
What's so wrong about feeling sorry for a guy who not only had his penis cut off by his wife, but was mocked for it on TV? is that not empathy? What about all these guys who had their other human rights violated, such as right to property or to family life? I'm not in their case. I think that counts as viewing things from another's perspective. Also, can you tell me in what way the gender wars are helping society? In what way the feminist laws are helping society? I look around me and it seems to be falling apart.

Want to try looking at things from my perspective, or has this particular teaching suddenly become redundant?

Ren's guide to making the world a crappier place:
-Step 1. blame one group (preferably less numerous) for the problems faced by another group you represent. Build a simple ideology around it, catch phrases, even if it doesn't represent what you actually do. Self-fulfilling prophecies work. If the group or its issues don't really exist, carefully craft them.
-Step 2. Make sure your group gains the upper hand by producing more devotees and gaining control of legislature. the catchphrases are very handy for this.
-Step 3. Strengthen your follower's beliefs, preferably by convincing them the other group suffers from a design flaw or other fault. defective genetics seems to work.
-Step 4. Don't allow outsiders to intervene, if they do, silence them. You can typecast them as the bad guys or let them think they've somehow achieved something that somewhat defused the situation.
-Step 5. Congratulations! The world is now a bigger dump than it was before. With a bit of luck, you could even get a war, or watch an entire civilization crumble on itself! Misery is everywhere, but be mindful! Another civilization will take its place and you will have to start it all over again.


Some feminists already are at step 3. I don't know if step 4 started yet but it would seem it has either failed or no-one thought of it yet. Step 5 is predicted to start in less than 50 years in europe.



Also, I must admit I just saw something hilarious. "the only way to redress imbalance in a sustained unbalanced system is to force a re-balancing - such as affirmative action"
Brenna is a white woman from south africa. they've done a lot about affirmative action there since Mandela. I'm sure she's going to post any moment now and tell you how much greater than you think affirmative action really is.