Alethea Thompson wrote:
Resticon wrote: Do you audit a class at a college by sitting and listening and learning or by approaching the teacher after class, not to ask him further questions, but to tell him that he is teaching his class wrong?
Just as a side note, yes, I actually have done this- on multiple occasions. If I heard something that sounded off, I would go research it, and then present it the next day to the teacher. I learned a lot about the sort of education teachers get, and just how terrible public school placement was in regards to putting teachers in areas they were not qualified to teach in.
And what if he then pulled out research to present to you saying the contrary. As I have said multiple different people can come to multiple different opinions of the same thing. What would your research be based off of? Another teacher or reference written by one?
Resticon wrote: And if I said that I interpret the word "Pineapple" to mean a person who has a hard prickly outer shell but is soft squishy inside and then say that I BELIEVE I am a pineapple...am I one then? The fact is that your world is what you determine it is. Words have meaning so long as someone believes they do. It is not the act of "calling" oneself a Jedi that makes them such. It is the act of believing that they are. No matter how they define the word or ideals of being a Jedi.
Then let's try a different approach. You drive down the street, and run over a small rock just large enough for you to feel that you've run over it. You then get out of the vehicle and swear up and down to people that you have killed someone that was on the road. In your head, you killed someone, in reality you have done nothing of the sort. Does your reality make it truth? Or is it merely your imagination?[/quote]
Two things, one that would be improperly worded in my opinion. Knowing that you have hit something and believing that you killed it are both possible. But you must also consider the fact that if in your mind whatever you hit was alive then, yes, you would have killed it. The simple fact that you do not know it was a rock means nothing. What if I believe that the rock is alive and by hitting it, I did in fact kill it. We could literally do this all day. By simply believing in something you give it power. Whether it is fact in another's eyes does not matter. So yes your reality makes it truth...to you. It does not necessarily make it true to anyone else. Which is why everyone is entitled to their own beliefs.
Alethea Thompson wrote: It's not good to use analogies like these. They do not hold up to scrutiny. The Pineapple analogy wasn't all that great either, Charles.
Who is Charles? And it holds up perfectly in my mind which being the topic under discussion you can not say I am wrong without first proving that the topic itself is wrong. Which in my eyes you have still not done sufficiently. Thankfully it does not matter to me that much because I respect that what you believe and what I believe are different. I do not believe that we have to agree on this point. You have heard my side, and I yours and it would be fruitless to continue it without something changing the dynamic of this part of the conversation.
Alethea Thompson wrote: If I tell you that I am a Muslim, but I do not believe that Mohammad is a messenger of God, nor do I pray 5 times a day, and I believe the Quran is a piece of out-dated literature, am I truly a Muslim?
That would depend on your personal belief in what makes a Muslim a Muslim. If you could describe to me what you believe a Muslim to be and can show how you fit into that category then by all means, Yes you are a Muslim.
Resticon wrote: If the gun did away with all martial art forms then what is Krav Maga? That style was created in the 1930s WELL after guns had been developed and were readily available. And in my state, if I kill a burglar with a sword in my home, I'd go to jail for murder and be sued out the ying-yang by the "victim's" families. For the record, I consider myself to be a pacifist. Why should I practice martial arts or any other form of self-defense? I prefer to let my mouth do the talking, not my fists.
Alethea Thompson wrote: "Most people who fight do so because they do not know anything about fighting. Those who train in fighting... seldomly need to fight."
~ Paladin Vandor Draconis
To expand on this, it's because you have such a commanding presence, that your voice carries more with the confidence you gain from learning to fight. You grow an appreciation for the abilities you have gained in the learning process. Being a pacifist is great, but knowing that you have everything available to you in order to maintain your pacifism carries a great deal of weight behind it. Just sayin'.
Sun Tzu - "If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies will float by."
You do not need to know HOW to fight to know what fighting is. There are many ways to learn confidence and few of them involve fighting. I may be a pacifist but do I seem meek and easy to walk all over? With my pacifism intact, I feel we have had a thorough and lengthy PEACEFUL debate in which my voice has been heard just as yours has. Whether either of us knows martial arts or not has no bearing.
Resticon wrote: The fact that I believe in the principles does not imply that everyone here must in my eyes. What I believe and what path I take is my own and I do not expect nor even ask that anyone else follows it. I would hope that they would follow their own path...no matter what direction it may take them and no matter what they believe.
Alethea Thompson wrote: Then why not encourage those who wish to be Jedi strive for the same ideals, but those whom do not follow them to find a path that is better for them? It might be Christianity, it might be Paganism, it might be the Sith Path, or any other number of different paths. Just because you hold the Jedi to a standard, does not preclude encouraging others to find paths that are NOT Jedi. I do it all the time, because sometimes being a Jedi is not beneficial to one's personal growth. They tend to find their own way through just becoming a greater influence in their field of study (computer science, etc) or by becoming more involved in their church, etc. The goal is to find what works, and if you aren't going to push for someone to become a better Jedi, then really are they moving forward? Or are they allow to simply rest in place while the entire world grows up around them?
I know plenty of people who are just "satisfied" with where they are at, they never take the challenges to immerse themselves into something which would help them grow closer to either themselves, the community or their deity. That is a sad state of affairs. But by getting involved with their lives and helping them find something that they can truly relate to, and truly grow in, that creates positive personal growth. A Jedi can help one get there, but it doesn't mean that the person they are helping will be a Jedi. They might just become a great medical doctor that prefers allowing their emotions to help them make tough judgement calls (a Jedi, in my system, would detach themselves from their emotions to make the hard logical decisions. When the decision has been made and executed, then they can deal with the stress that follows in a healthy manner).
By making these principles available and guiding people towards them, do you not encourage people to learn it? The choice then becomes their's whether they wish to learn it or if they do not feel it fits into what they determine to be a Jedi. Guidance without judgement. Simple, no? Live and let live. I still do not understand what gives you the right to decide who does and does not meet the criteria of a Jedi. Did you found the religion? No, you interpreted your own beliefs on the subject matter from what was presented to you. Behold the definition of a belief...
be·lief /biˈlēf/
Noun:
1. An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
2. Something one accepts as true or real; a firmly held opinion or conviction.
Read #2 closely. Right there is the reason why you can not say that someone's belief is wrong.
Resticon wrote: I have also seen you mention that your views "will not be changed" throughout this thread. While I believe you have a right to feel that way, you seem to have closed your mind to alternative views and see them as hostile attacks on your beliefs. My teachers do not push me nor do I w2ant them to. How can a teacher push me in a direction if they do not even know what direction is mine to take? They can offer wisdom and alternative viewpoints which I may choose to learn or not. I personally believe that to not do so would be a waste of my time here. "I shall not seek so much to be"..."understood as to understand." Attempt to open your mind to these alternative views and you will understand more. To keep your mind so narrow, you only push for others to understand you and to agree with you.
Alethea Thompson wrote: Are you not also closed-minded to what Charles has said? You want to allow everyone the opportunity to improve, but have you considered that the way the Jedi Path was meant to progress has gotten very far from those whom started the movement? There is a reason that some the idea behind "Light, Dark and Shadow" started. It was because some people didn't like the idea of adhering strictly to the Jedi archetype. The Dark Aspect was intended to be affiliated with the Sith Path, later people outside created their own "Dark Jedi" because the EU allowed for them. The Shadow Aspect covered people that are about forward action, but they cultivated ideals from both the Dark and Light Aspects to determine their morality. This was also something that was supported by the idea of the EU. The Light was always affiliated with simply "Jedi", and has never faltered from the original archetype outlined in the SWU. They based their training on the same types of base material used for training younglings, and then you could define how you would serve the order, while relying on your training to progress the order forward. Even the librarian was trained in the art of defense. These bits and pieces of the Jedi Path were what the Old Guard based everything off of, so is it honoring the origin of our path by stepping away from it?
Uh, no. I do not believe I am being closed-minded. I start almost every sentence with I feel or I believe for that reason. These are my current beliefs, should you say something that definitively sways me, then by all means, my beliefs could change. I am accepting what he has to say as his belief. That being said I am playing Devil's Advocate (as I said earlier) and I am offering up alternative views to try and broaden his mind a bit. That is all.
Alethea Thompson wrote: To use Christianity as an example- you cannot merely claim to be a Christian and expect to be taken seriously by God Himself. Every preacher teaches this. Not that the message reaches everyone like it should, but it is taught none-the-less. They accept people into their home, not to call them Christians, but to teach them how to become Christians in hopes they will follow God. At the end of the day, no matter how many different variations their are to the Christian faith, none of the churches deviate from the core origin for what it means to be a Christian:
That Jesus Christ was a real person.
He lived and died on the cross for our sins.
We no longer have to give sacrifices to God, because Jesus was our sacrifice.
To live in accordance with the teachings of Christ, not merely to believe.
In order to be allowed into heaven, you must accept Christ into your heart.
And I'm sure there are a few other miscellaneous other things which link us all together- but you get the point. Even after 2000 years, we've not gotten away from the core. However, with the Jedi Path, it seems that some are willing to give up on the core that was only 15 years ago. This is why what you describe is "Force Realist" and not "Jedi". There IS an archetype to adhere to. And by your own admission, you strive to live by it, but living by the code, creed and so forth. It shows you recognize the importance behind it.
According to my bible, John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." So for my belief that says all I have to do is believe in him. Not go to church, not be free of sin, or anything else. Just believe in one man. And yes, actually the core of Christianity has changed to the point that there are dozens, maybe even hundreds, of religions out there that claim to be better Christians than the others. They aren't either. Just different ways of interpreting the same book.
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. As tragic as the ending came out to be for the Old Republic, I could easily argue it needed to happen in order to save the Jedi Order. They had become such a slave to their own philosophy that it was hurting the masses on a large scale, due to complacency. So when he disregards the council and takes on Anakin as his pseudo apprentice anyway, you could say he is doing EXACTLY what the "Will of 'the Force'" wants in order to restore balance to itself. But like a lot of messy situations, you have to make things worse before they can get better. Like re-organizing a filing cabinet from dates to alphabetical order (*head spins*) (had to do that a few times.... ugh...).
