Light or Shadow?

Jestor wrote:

Resticon, UraharaKiskue's real name is Charles...


Ah ha, that makes sense lol.

Your comment left me confused Resticon....

The Old Doris wrote: Your comment left me confused Resticon....

I was previously very confused because Alethea kept popping the name CHarles into the middle of sentences while we were debating. Couldn't figure out who Charles was. That's all. No grand mystery lol.

Wonderful,,

no we're on the same wave length..

Thank you...

First off, if I missed anyone my apologies the thread seems to be growing at exponential speed and I am but a humble man trying to keep up with it.

Let's see. I'm not sure about what you think. I quote your statement about which I'm inquiring. I ask you a question. The question is do you agree with the statements Temple Of The Jedi Order is not a church and its Jediism is not a religion?

That's putting words in your mouth and accusing you of things?

I still don't know what your answer is.

Charles, I have to agree with the man- you DID sorta side-step the question.

That is because I know a trap when I see one. I tried to bow out gracefully from injuring feelings however the issue has been pressed further. It is not in my nature to wish to cause harm to someone emotionally in such a situation. That being said I shall continue, remember you did ask for my opinion.

Is the Temple of the Jedi Order a Church? Certainly by some definitions however it is not a Church of Jedi as I do not see Jedi as a religion. In my view it is a Forci/Forciest Church. That is to say, by it's vary nature it moves too far outside the core ideals of what it means to be a Jedi and focuses on subjective and a multitude of religions.

However take in note in my view it would be impossible to have a Jedi Church of any kind. At it's core being a Jedi is more than belief or worship in the force. It's a strong commitment to certain ideals, a willingness to improve ones self and the world around them, as well as a set of practices in training. There is plenty of room for interpretation in this even then yet this strong core is what inspired most of us to the Jedi Path.

My seal of approval is not required for your continual actions nor is it even requested. I respect that you've gained a large community. However I stand by my stance. Using the fiction as an inspiration and a basic guideline (I barely went out of the first 3 movies) there are areas in here that are lacking. That is a fact. Now you can claim that this group splits off from that but then I ask the question "Why the name Jedi?" if it is not just something to make you FEEL BETTER about the fact that it is just a New Age Spiritualist movement that is going on here?

When did I do anything comparable to this? Unpopular opinions must be an attack now.

Do you audit a class at a college by sitting and listening and learning or by approaching the teacher after class, not to ask him further questions, but to tell him that he is teaching his class wrong?

I went to great pains to say this so I'll say it again. My opinion and approval are not required for this structure to maintain it's position. I was asked by an outside party to weigh in on this thread and my thoughts as a whole on it. I have done that. I've seen nothing of a self defense training course, I've seen evidence of pacifism being taught (I disagree wholeheartedly with that being a Jedi Value) instead of peace which is often gained through any number of means. Quite a bit of lip service has been paid to the name Jedi but ultimately those claiming the moral high ground are unable to define it while those, myself included, who are willing to put down a basic definition of some form in writing are forced onto the defensive.

How about Force Training? Does the temple even offer a program in use, training, and understanding of the Force? How about more functional day to day skills does the temple in some fashion promote the training of these or provide resources?

Understand this, there is no impetuous on you to answer these questions. In fact I'm perfectly fine with you going on as is. However when you put me on the defensive I will only defend for so long. It is not the Jedi Way to remain only defensive in a conflict that can be resolved with less hurt by a more aggressive action. I'd be happier if the subject were let drop but I know what is going to happen next. On that note I'm out of time and must get to work.

Alethea Thompson wrote:

Resticon wrote: If the gun did away with all martial art forms then what is Krav Maga? That style was created in the 1930s WELL after guns had been developed and were readily available. And in my state, if I kill a burglar with a sword in my home, I'd go to jail for murder and be sued out the ying-yang by the "victim's" families. For the record, I consider myself to be a pacifist. Why should I practice martial arts or any other form of self-defense? I prefer to let my mouth do the talking, not my fists.

"Most people who fight do so because they do not know anything about fighting. Those who train in fighting... seldomly need to fight."
~ Paladin Vandor Draconis

To expand on this, it's because you have such a commanding presence, that your voice carries more with the confidence you gain from learning to fight. You grow an appreciation for the abilities you have gained in the learning process. Being a pacifist is great, but knowing that you have everything available to you in order to maintain your pacifism carries a great deal of weight behind it. Just sayin'.

I did also want to make one more point about this part.

My belief in pacifism does not necessarily mean that I do not intend to study a form of the martial arts at some point (whether I use it or not). But it does mean that I shouldn't HAVE to before I am "worthy" of calling myself a Jedi. I have actually been thoroughly looking into studying Aikikai for it's "attack-less" defense, fluidity, compassion for the well-being of your attacker (it's pretty tough to kill someone even accidentally by using this ryu jujutsu) and for the spiritual/meditative/harmonious aspect of it.

I'd also kind of like to learn Kendo...but that is more so that I know how to properly use a lightsaber :silly:

UraharaKiskue wrote: That is because I know a trap when I see one. I tried to bow out gracefully from injuring feelings however the issue has been pressed further. It is not in my nature to wish to cause harm to someone emotionally in such a situation. That being said I shall continue, remember you did ask for my opinion.

Is the Temple of the Jedi Order a Church? Certainly by some definitions however it is not a Church of Jedi as I do not see Jedi as a religion. In my view it is a Forci/Forciest Church. That is to say, by it's vary nature it moves too far outside the core ideals of what it means to be a Jedi and focuses on subjective and a multitude of religions.

However take in note in my view it would be impossible to have a Jedi Church of any kind. At it's core being a Jedi is more than belief or worship in the force. It's a strong commitment to certain ideals, a willingness to improve ones self and the world around them, as well as a set of practices in training. There is plenty of room for interpretation in this even then yet this strong core is what inspired most of us to the Jedi Path.

I have absolutely no complaints with this statement for 2 reasons. First, this is the first time I have seen you state the words "my opinion" (I could have missed them previously but I did make an attempt to read through them thoroughly). Second, I do not see it as a religion either. Merely a system of beliefs that were created with the understanding that as we change so to must the way we view things change.

My seal of approval is not required for your continual actions nor is it even requested. I respect that you've gained a large community. However I stand by my stance. Using the fiction as an inspiration and a basic guideline (I barely went out of the first 3 movies) there are areas in here that are lacking. That is a fact. Now you can claim that this group splits off from that but then I ask the question "Why the name Jedi?" if it is not just something to make you FEEL BETTER about the fact that it is just a New Age Spiritualist movement that is going on here?

When did I do anything comparable to this? Unpopular opinions must be an attack now.

Do you audit a class at a college by sitting and listening and learning or by approaching the teacher after class, not to ask him further questions, but to tell him that he is teaching his class wrong?

UraharaKiskue wrote: I went to great pains to say this so I'll say it again. My opinion and approval are not required for this structure to maintain it's position. I was asked by an outside party to weigh in on this thread and my thoughts as a whole on it. I have done that. I've seen nothing of a self defense training course, I've seen evidence of pacifism being taught (I disagree wholeheartedly with that being a Jedi Value) instead of peace which is often gained through any number of means. Quite a bit of lip service has been paid to the name Jedi but ultimately those claiming the moral high ground are unable to define it while those, myself included, who are willing to put down a basic definition of some form in writing are forced onto the defensive.

From my perspective, I see multiple issues with this part though. First, I am still curious how you would teach self-defense online besides the methods available in the "Library" of TotJO (Under the Martial Arts section here -->http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/home/library). Second, I don't think anyone here has claimed to be a pacifist or promote pacifism besides me and it is not something I learned here. It is merely how I interpreted the beliefs described here in my own mind. Again this goes back to the definition of "Belief" from a few posts ago. Third, I feel that if anyone has been on the defensive over the last day it would have been me. The things that I believe were being questioned by 3 people so quickly that I would finish one response only to have 2 more questions waiting. Yet everything I said was "in my opinion" or "I believe that" or "from my point of view". Nothing aggressive or attacking directed at anyone and if it came off that way I do apologize.

UraharaKiskue wrote: How about Force Training? Does the temple even offer a program in use, training, and understanding of the Force? How about more functional day to day skills does the temple in some fashion promote the training of these or provide resources?

I guess that would depend on how you view the Force now wouldn't it? If you believe it is the physical act of force jumping/force lightning(ing?)/force choking/force pushing etc. and that it can be taught to people, then by all means, please teach me!:woohoo: I think that stuff would be awesome but I see the Force differently than many other people. Since I believe the force to be the Living Force of Creation, it fits perfectly into my beliefs that it exists as the Holy Spirit. Can you prove me wrong?

UraharaKiskue wrote: Understand this, there is no impetuous on you to answer these questions. In fact I'm perfectly fine with you going on as is. However when you put me on the defensive I will only defend for so long. It is not the Jedi Way to remain only defensive in a conflict that can be resolved with less hurt by a more aggressive action. I'd be happier if the subject were let drop but I know what is going to happen next. On that note I'm out of time and must get to work.

If you believe that the Jedi way gives cause to sometimes be aggressive then I am fine by that. However if you are being aggressive because of an (in my opinion of course) imagined slight, then I have to ask, why? What makes you feel as though you are on the defensive? Because other people would choose to question you in the course of a debate? No one is "caps-locking" you to death or calling you names or even saying that you are wrong. We just have an alternative view point on a similar topic which we are extrapolating on to form new view points on new topics.

Andy Spalding wrote: I am grateful that we are able to have discussions like these without people getting butt hurt about it.

"getting butt hurt" LOL, that gives a new meaning to "Dark Side" and "feeling the Force", doesn't it!

"Peace is a lie; there is only Charmin. Don't squeeze it." -- first line of the Code that "Sith" would spell if its letters were rearranged.

All joking aside, I do agree with what you wrote, though.

Fraternally in the Force,
-David

ren wrote:

Jediists- Agnostic Jedi, follow the path as their predecessors Jedi Realists under the name Jediism to signify they do not follow a religion.

Han shot first, so did Jediism.

LOL Amen, Brother!

UraharaKiskue wrote: First off, if I missed anyone my apologies the thread seems to be growing at exponential speed and I am but a humble man trying to keep up with it.

Let's see. I'm not sure about what you think. I quote your statement about which I'm inquiring. I ask you a question. The question is do you agree with the statements Temple Of The Jedi Order is not a church and its Jediism is not a religion?

That's putting words in your mouth and accusing you of things?

I still don't know what your answer is.

Charles, I have to agree with the man- you DID sorta side-step the question.

That is because I know a trap when I see one. I tried to bow out gracefully from injuring feelings however the issue has been pressed further. It is not in my nature to wish to cause harm to someone emotionally in such a situation. That being said I shall continue, remember you did ask for my opinion.

Is the Temple of the Jedi Order a Church? Certainly by some definitions however it is not a Church of Jedi as I do not see Jedi as a religion. In my view it is a Forci/Forciest Church. That is to say, by it's vary nature it moves too far outside the core ideals of what it means to be a Jedi and focuses on subjective and a multitude of religions.

However take in note in my view it would be impossible to have a Jedi Church of any kind. At it's core being a Jedi is more than belief or worship in the force. It's a strong commitment to certain ideals, a willingness to improve ones self and the world around them, as well as a set of practices in training. There is plenty of room for interpretation in this even then yet this strong core is what inspired most of us to the Jedi Path.

My seal of approval is not required for your continual actions nor is it even requested. I respect that you've gained a large community. However I stand by my stance. Using the fiction as an inspiration and a basic guideline (I barely went out of the first 3 movies) there are areas in here that are lacking. That is a fact. Now you can claim that this group splits off from that but then I ask the question "Why the name Jedi?" if it is not just something to make you FEEL BETTER about the fact that it is just a New Age Spiritualist movement that is going on here?

When did I do anything comparable to this? Unpopular opinions must be an attack now.

I was trying to get your position absolutely clear on some matters but not to trap you or set you up for ridicule or harassment.

Let's look at some examples of schools of thought in Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church recognizes some Protestant churches as being Christian and accepts their baptisms as valid. It does not recognize The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as being a Christian church. Some Protestant denominations say The Catholic Church is not Christian but a pagan cult. I know some folks who say, “I don't belong to a religion I have a direct personal relationship with Jesus Christ”.

All these folks are invoking Jesus but getting to different conclusions.

You feel Jedi means this and it does not mean that and all I have to say is OK. That's what it means to you. There's nothing to debate or argue about.

I chose the name Temple Of The Jedi Order because that's what I was inspired to do. I feel good about it. If it makes me feel better and others feel better – that's great. I'm very fond of things that make me feel better especially if they're not bad for me in the long run.

We could be a New Age Spiritual moment and I can make a good argument that we have lot's in common with Unitarian Universalism. I'd say we're a Humanism too.

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B. Kliban

I guess that would depend on how you view the Force now wouldn't it? If you believe it is the physical act of force jumping/force lightning(ing?)/force choking/force pushing etc. and that it can be taught to people, then by all means, please

Some level of ESP training, basic energy work as it concerns spiritual defense is a must, those who don't believe in spiritual attack have not ever been hit by one. The method of proof I will not stoop down to

From my perspective, I see multiple issues with this part though. First, I am still curious how you would teach self-defense online besides the methods available in the "Library" of TotJO (Under the Martial Arts section here -->www.templeofthejediorder.org/home/library).

I'd require that every Knight and Master at the least have put some study be it self study or under the guidance of an instructor into some form of martial arts. Martial arts is a very broad term. Further I'd require they continue to improve those skills in the event they might be called to act as a Jedi in an emergency instead of standing back and watching a beat down happen. However this is what I would require, and it would allow me to avoid the legal issues of teaching it online. Mind you nothing compels TOTJO to move in the direction I would move in if I were heading it up.

My belief in pacifism does not necessarily mean that I do not intend to study a form of the martial arts at some point (whether I use it or not). But it does mean that I shouldn't HAVE to before I am "worthy" of calling myself a Jedi. I have actually been thoroughly looking into studying Aikikai for it's "attack-less" defense, fluidity, compassion for the well-being of your attacker (it's pretty tough to kill someone even accidentally by using this ryu jujutsu) and for the spiritual/meditative/harmonious aspect of it.

I'd also kind of like to learn Kendo...but that is more so that I know how to properly use a lightsaber

As a side note and not to derail the conversation. Aiki techniques can be very devastating, never for a moment think any martial art or form lacks killing potential. I can box you and not kill you because I keep my foot work in check and not use my entire weight behind each punch. Likewise on a throw if I twist slightly more in the direction of your fall and use the force of my frame I can go from something that will probably just break your shoulder to something that may kill. The power in any martial art is rooted at its intent and the person performing it. All art-forms have as much potential to destroy as they do to only annoy.

As for Kendo if your studying Aiki it's origins are in Kenjutsu forms so you should find it all meshing nicely honestly.

I was trying to get your position absolutely clear on some matters but not to trap you or set you up for ridicule or harassment.

Ah fair enough, when one asks very short questions it gives the impression of a setup honestly. Especially when to some degree the view is already known in some way.

Your point is well made though. No one can stop you from calling yourself a Christian. You can go out rape, pillage, and plunder and your still just as Jedi as the next person also. You can sit there fuming in anger never seeking peace and be a Buddhist too.

However the meaning of the word does not change overly much no matter who uses it.