Light or Shadow?

Learn_To_Know wrote:
Good points.

There is certainly many similarities between all religions, but in my opinion (that word again, haha) the Force is something entirely different than the God I was taught to believe in. My teachings about God growing up have shaped me on how I view God and how I view the Force and I see them as distinctly different.

God gives others strength, the Force gives me strength.

Some may say the Force and God are the same thing, but from what I understand about the Abrahamic religions, their God gets royally pissed if he's not acknowledged for all his follower's blessings and will destroy them.

But since I don't believe in God but I believe in the Force, here I am now, haha. Again, this is just LTK...just my opinion. I don't speak for the Temple...just myself.

This is true and that is why I did not use the word God when describing the force because to me God and the Force are not the same. Everyone has their own views on what the Force is.

For you, since you don't believe in "God", you believe in the "Force" as itself which gives you strength. For many, God and the Force may be the same and is that which gives them strength. For me, the Force is the Holy Spirit. I believe this because as you said, I see God as a merciful, loving but vengeful god. But the fact still remains that everyone can attribute the term "Force" to whatever particular thing they believe. I feel that defining a Jedi simply as someone who believes in the Force is missing what truly sets the Jedi apart. All religions (and for many non-religions) believe in a force though it comes in many names and forms. I feel that the force does not separate the Jedi from other religions but rather unites them.

What I feel defines a Jedi as opposed to other religions is quite simply the Dogma spoken about in the Jedi Code and Jedi Creed. While all religions have a "force", most religions vary about what is right and wrong with other religions. Jedi do not focus on what is wrong with other religions but rather on what unites all people regardless of race, religion, gender, age, sexual orientation, etc.

UraharaKiskue wrote: For the record I haven't given a thumbs up or a thumbs down of TOTJO, it's curriculum, or it's Masters/Knights in any way, shape, or form. That would be beyond foul of me to do so as an independent but active Third Party without at least auditing the curriculum, questioning the masters, and being here a good bit longer.

It would be foul, yes.

But what makes you think you have the credentials to even audit the curriculum and question our Jedi Masters? Are you the Overlord of all proper things Jedi? Just sayin....

What I have done is list the standard I set for Jedi and have been sufficiently unwavering that all future portraits of me are said to only truly capture my image if made in granite.

Fair enough.

All humorous phrases aside I didn't even list the standards in the sheer level of strictness I normally do. I kept everything at what I consider the Core Values. Likewise if someone was not meeting my standard of approval that means precious little honestly.

True.

If the standards I live by, the standards I push for, and the standards I uphold seem aggressive always ask yourself is it that I have set the standard too high to be reached or is it that the standard I set you yourself have set and in finding it beyond your current level have accepted defeat.

Actually, no. I think the standards should be more rigorous. We should make sure all Jedi can do 100 push-ups in 90 seconds, 100 sit-ups in 90 seconds, 30 pull-ups in 45 seconds, and have a body-fat percentage of less than 10%. They also would need to be prepared to give an ad-hoc speech that must last at least 60 minutes for an auditorium of thousands on a subject randomly chosen. That would make sure only the elect physical and mental specimens can be Jedi.

What's my point in saying that?

It's that you have set standards on what a true Jedi is. If that were my criteria for a true Jedi, could you meet it? Would you think yourself any less of a Jedi because I thought you weren't meeting my criteria?

In honesty, if you gave me your specific criteria on being a true Jedi, I'm confident I could meet it. I guarantee I could meet it (I'm very competitive sometimes, haha). But will that really make me a truer Jedi over someone else here that maybe couldn't meet those standards? I think not...

We are ALL Jedi. I look at you as a Jedi, because you believe yourself to be one. That's enough for me.

The first enemy every Jedi must conquer is defeat. It is in conquering this terrible foe that we strive. It is in striving that we do. It is in doing that we are.

I agree completely.

I know a girl who puts in more exercise a day than most of us do a week. She has everything against her in this. However her stern resolve to move forward shows her as a true Jedi.

That is fantastic and I would consider her a Jedi as well.

I also know a Jedi that does not exercise every day but does Yoga once or twice a week. I know she is a true Jedi, too.

I consider myself blessed to meet so many true Jedi in my life. Those who take offense to my message because they know they can reach higher I say to them this. Take heart, there are those who have less than you who push harder, push as hard as them and you will do great things.

Jedi doesn't mean doing more than your able to, only just as much as you can.

We share something here: I also consider myself very fortunate to know the Jedi I do at this Temple and the wonderful friends I've made from California, Arizona and Utah to Illinois, Texas and the United Kingdom and other European countries. They are all true Jedi to me. And not because they do or do not meet strict exercise or self-defense regiments; it's because they believe in the Force and on becoming better people. It's what makes this Temple so great and a beacon of Light to all other Jedi sites.

I don't take offense at your message, but I take exception to who you label as true Jedi; I do respect your right to voice your opinion and I am very glad you did! You have contributed to an excellent discussion and I thank you for your contributions!

MTFBWY,
LTK

Resticon wrote:
This is true and that is why I did not use the word God when describing the force because to me God and the Force are not the same. Everyone has their own views on what the Force is.

For you, since you don't believe in "God", you believe in the "Force" as itself which gives you strength. For many, God and the Force may be the same and is that which gives them strength. For me, the Force is the Holy Spirit. I believe this because as you said, I see God as a merciful, loving but vengeful god. But the fact still remains that everyone can attribute the term "Force" to whatever particular thing they believe. I feel that defining a Jedi simply as someone who believes in the Force is missing what truly sets the Jedi apart. All religions (and for many non-religions) believe in a force though it comes in many names and forms. I feel that the force does not separate the Jedi from other religions but rather unites them.

What I feel defines a Jedi as opposed to other religions is quite simply the Dogma spoken about in the Jedi Code and Jedi Creed. While all religions have a "force", most religions vary about what is right and wrong with other religions. Jedi do not focus on what is wrong with other religions but rather on what unites all people regardless of race, religion, gender, age, sexual orientation, etc.

I appreciate you sharing your point of view

Let me give you, unsolicited, a little background on how I came to be what I am now...

I was raised Mormon and was told often I wasn't a real Christian and that I believed in a different Jesus. That in itself is why I take exception to others hinting at some not being "true" Jedi at this Temple. It's the same argument, different venue.

I also was taught that if I didn't acknowledge the Christian God and if I turned away from his chosen path, that he would no longer bless me and in fact, be vengeful and mean in an attempt to make my life miserable and motivate me to repent.

I've rejected the Christian God as taught to me by the Mormons. And just about the opposite has happened to me as opposed to what my spiritual leaders and family and friends said would happen to me...I found this Temple! I found peace! I found the Force! I've been blessed incredibly since I rejected my former religion. (Now, I'm not saying every Mormon should reject their religion. I'm ONLY saying it was my PATH to do it and what needed to happen for ME).

It's why I personally will never attribute God or the Holy Spirit to the Force. To me, it gives the distinction between Christian and Jedi. To you it's a similarity and the same thing. That's great! That's your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. I can't say you're wrong anymore than you can say I'm wrong.

What's great is that we can be civil about it and still be Jedi.

But I get the fundamental difference between us on how we view what the Force really is, but that's okay. As per the direction this thread has taken, I don't look at you as ANY less of a Jedi because we disagree fundamentally on what the Force really is. I hope I have the same Jedi-status to you

And if I don't, that's okay, too. The Force is my ally and a powerful ally it is...alone or with company, haha.

Learn_To_Know...I would never in a million years say that you are not a Jedi, or even that you are less of a Jedi than another, because of how you view the Force. I agree 1000% with what you said in response to UraharaKiskue - "We are ALL Jedi. I look at you as a Jedi, because you believe yourself to be one. That's enough for me. "

I play Devil's Advocate a lot simply because I often observe many different viewpoints for DAYS before I respond, and even then it is usually merely to offer up an alternative viewpoint that hasn't been mentioned. I have been on TotJO for over a week now, almost 24/7 but I have only made 35 posts for this reason. I believe in complete and total respect for another individual simply because of who they are and I don't try to "correct" someone. Just offer another view.

If you look on my profile you will see that I mention following 2 Creeds. For me, and me alone (unless others choose to believe it of course), my belief in the Apostles Creed (according to John 3:16) is the only thing required of my religion to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. My belief in the Jedi Creed is that of a way that I am supposed to live my life through my actions (substituting Holy Spirit in the place of Force). With all that being said, I do not believe myself to be a better Jedi than anyone here, or even more of a Jedi. I'm not trying to change anyone's religion either. Just saying how I view this topic. I believe that everyone views this religion in a way that fits into their particular life and that simply by believing in something we can make it a reality. No one is more right or wrong than another in my eyes, I simply point out other ways of viewing a similar topic.

As for this statement - "I hope I have the same Jedi-status to you ". Of course you do brother, as it was never in question in my mind.

UraharaKiskue wrote: I've went over this as best I could. Let me contribute a bit by saying The Path of the Jedi is not an easy one. Ultimately we are talking about taking an idea from a fictional universe and applying it to day to day life. What can we take from that path within a level of certainty?

Can we actually TRULY take anything with a level of certainty from a movie...especially one where one of the wisest characters had a hand/stick stuck up his rear end so that he could speak? :woohoo: Don't get me wrong he had many wise ideas for a puppet and what he said can be applied to real life. But should we judge another human being based on how well they live up to the ideals from a puppet in a movie? I think not but maybe that's just me. I live based off the principles of doing what is right according to my conscience and showing compassion and understanding to all people, no matter what stage of their journey they are on. To me that is simple common sense.

UraharaKiskue wrote: The Force: An energy field that is both manipulable, sensible, and yet interconnected to all other energies if not the basis for all energy in existence.

Ok, let's say you follow the movie regarding a handful of ideas, aren't you still super imposing your own views onto what parts you believe to be more important than others? What about Jedi needing to be force-wielding children who are taken into an Academy at a young age so they lose attachments to things? Should we start going into people's homes and telling them their child is force-sensitive and must come to our academy to study?

UraharaKiskue wrote: Training To Improve: A Core Message of the movies is Luke and his Growth through hard work, training, discipline, and focus.

As far as I am concerned every person who seeks out a way to learn more about themselves or a new belief system is in training. That is also the point of the initiate's program, Knight/Apprenticeship studies (as the apprentice), and Knight/Apprenticeship studies (as the Knight). It seems to me that everyone who comes here with a desire to learn and who physically makes an attempt is in training...and that training does not stop, unless they choose to leave the order of course.

UraharaKiskue wrote: Skill in the Martial Forms: Again a Core Message from the movies as represented by the Lightsaber and the improvement of skill we see in Luke.

Maybe it's just me, but I think I missed the Kung-Fu clips from Star Wars. Also please re-read the 9th Basic Teaching of the Jedi. As for training with a fictional weapon...yeah need I even continue? :silly:

UraharaKiskue wrote: A Core Ideal: The Core Ideal presented in the movies is one of compassion, strength, dedication, determination, a never give up attitude and a will and drive to make a difference. This too we can practice.

This point I will give you. The Core Ideal is something I see represented in the maxims, code, creed, tenets and beliefs of Jediism. That being said, it is something that people here (not necessarily including Sith although on occasion they do show some of these ideals) aspire to. But we are all only human (no Twileks or Kel Dor here last I checked) and we are in many ways limited to what we can do by reality and physics. We get shot, we die. No magical blades of light to reflect them back at our attacker.

UraharaKiskue wrote: Let us pull next from the expanded elements past these movies.

The Jedi Code: The Jedi Code is more than just a 4 line thing, it's a collection of maxims, a code of action (the 4-5line Anderson Code), as well as a Guideline for what defines a Jedi (The Skywalker Code). Is it so much that we can ask people if not to completely match this ideal then to at least STRIVE TO REACH THE IDEAL? Certainly people can, will, and do fail all the time. The movies are all about Failure. Luke Fails at the cave, Fails to Kill Vader, Fails to defend himself against the Emperor. However he does not simply say "This is to hard" or "I can't do this" or "This is unrealistic".

Would you be referring to this Skywalker Code?
http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Jediism/43508-The-Skywalker-Code

The beliefs, code and creed are all present on this site in the Temple Doctrine section under the header JEDI BELIEVE: Feel free to check it out sometime if you're interested.

UraharaKiskue wrote: What I see a lot of in most of the community is a willingness to excuse weakness not because one can not strengthen beyond that weakness but because one is UNWILLING TO. However there are a SELECT FEW INDIVIDUALS I hold in high regard because despite whatever comes their way they NEVER GIVE UP. That is part of the CORE of what a Jed is, as well as the strive to adhere to the Code, Creed, and Ideals.

I see you talk about a willingness to excuse weakness...but who decides what is weakness? Is a 5 year old weak? Yes of course, in virtually every sense of the word. They have to grow their body, mind and soul as they age. Does it happen over night? Heck no! It takes years to get that far. The fact is those who are unwilling to strengthen do so out of fear, ignorance, emotion and because they have lived and had past thoughts about life. In order to strengthen a muscle, first you have to tear it. People who are unwilling to learn have to unlearn that desire before they can be taught. Why would we send someone away who clearly needs guidance?

BTW, since you're so fond of the movie references here's something you should understand. Luke did give up in RotJ when Sidious activated the Death Star. He lost control and started going to the Dark Side. He even went fully to the Dark Side in books afterwards. Apparently, even the great Skywalker you use as your example still had much to learn even after the movies were over about being a "True Jedi".

So that's my two sense. PARTY ON GARTH! :woohoo:

UraharaKiskue wrote: I consider myself blessed to meet so many true Jedi in my life. Those who take offense to my message because they know they can reach higher I say to them this. Take heart, there are those who have less than you who push harder, push as hard as them and you will do great things.

Perhaps you assume too much in saying that a) people have been offended by things you have said, and b) if they did, it would be because they were feeling guilty at not trying hard enough.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I can certainly say that I haven't been offended by anything written in this thread - no-one has been making malicious personal attacks, just stating firmly held beliefs.

However, I think that when replying to a comment or considering something someone has said we sometimes have to ask ourselves:

Do I want to set myself apart with my point of view or do I want to try to find common ground?

...am I looking at this with an open mind and thinking "What do I agree with and like about what this person has said?"

...am I going into this looking for differences of opinion and thinking "What do I disagree with here?"

Perhaps some would say that the two are the same...but I find that if I was to write two replies to the same thing using each approach, they would turn out very differently...

A very pertinent observation, V ! Cheers !

V-Tog wrote: Do I want to set myself apart with my point of view or do I want to try to find common ground?

That's a flawed question, V-Tog. You can easily do both simultaneously without causing conflict between yourself and others. By setting yourself apart, you can inspire others to move up in the world around them. Oprah Winfrey is in a league of her own, she is distinguished among fellow talk show hosts, and yet finds the means of common ground to simply talk with people she may not agree with in order to get their message out, and teach. She inspires those she talks with to distinguish themselves among the crowd, who in turn inspire the audience.

Resticon wrote: Can we actually TRULY take anything with a level of certainty from a movie...especially one where one of the wisest characters had a hand/stick stuck up his rear end so that he could speak?

I could debate how "wise" Yoda was all day. He's my least favorite character (barring Jar-Jar) from the movies. I can't say anything about his character in the EU, though, I don't read the books.

And sure you can, if you really analyze things from the movies-which is what inspired the Jedi Movement in the first place. The whole point of becoming a Jedi (since 1996) was to incorporate the ideals of the Jedi Path from the movie, and translate it into real concepts so that you could move forward in life rather than stay put without any purpose beyond "survive".

This conversation has developed into a great discussion. So let's see what else we can get out of it.

Any path you take (Christian, Buddhist, Jedi, etc) isn't worth taking unless it gives you some sense of purpose. So what have you found within the Jedi Path that you couldn't get else where? What purpose does it inspire within you?

Alethea Thompson wrote:

V-Tog wrote: Do I want to set myself apart with my point of view or do I want to try to find common ground?

That's a flawed question, V-Tog. You can easily do both simultaneously without causing conflict between yourself and others. By setting yourself apart, you can inspire others to move up in the world around them. Oprah Winfrey is in a league of her own, she is distinguished among fellow talk show hosts, and yet finds the means of common ground to simply talk with people she may not agree with in order to get their message out, and teach. She inspires those she talks with to distinguish themselves among the crowd, who in turn inspire the audience.

I don't think that a question can really be flawed unless it implies that there is a right answer (although if you give an example of a flawed question with no implied answer, I'll be happy to admit I'm wrong on that...). I certainly didn't say that either mindset was better than the other, I just pointed out that they can create different answers and as such it is good to think about whether we are taking one of the two approaches over the other - sometimes people get so involved in a discussion that you see them only ever disagreeing with certain people and/or agreeing with others, and you wonder whether they have been evaluating the discussion fairly and giving it their full consideration.

I didn't say that you have to choose one and stick rigidly to it...

It's flawed in the fact that it's presented as an "either-or", as opposed to an "and-or"...why do we say "either-or"...it's saying the same thing! lol.