Light or Shadow?

There are lots of good points in this thread....

Like I said in another thread, but was proven wrong, (fraterdavid, lol), its all opinion....

Alethea, UraharaKiskue, Jestor, ren, Br. John....

We all have different ideas of what a Jedi is...

We all agree it should be a person who is continually striving to better themselves....

We have our criteria here at TOTJO, and since my joining, the criteria has changed twice... Each time, it gets more stringent....

I would be willing to bet we don't make it easier...

dk42one wrote: . But since the force is the two together, Black and White, and a Jedi must be in tune, or even a instrument of the force is it possible to not be in some degree a Grey Jedi, just some people say, well I'm a Light(White) Jedi because I'm more towards light than darkness. And you have Grey Jedi who wake up and say, wow, I'm both Black and White and embrace the two sides saying it is the Forces nature. And then the Sith says I'm more black than white so I am Sith.

Sorry, I meant to comment on this as well...

Agreed...

Someone posted earlier, that since none of us can be pure light, nor pure dark, we are grey...

Some of us will lean toward the lighter grey, and some of us toward the darker grey...

The First Principle

When one goes to Obaku temple in Kyoto he sees carved over the gate the words "The First Principle." The letters are unusually large, and those who appreciate calligraphy always admire them as being a masterpiece. They were drawn by Kosen two hundred years ago.

When the master drew them he did so on paper, from which workmen made the larger carving in wood. As Kosen sketched the letters a bold pupil was with him who had made several gallons of ink for the calligraphy and who never failed to criticize his master's work.

"That is not good," he told Kosen after the first effort.

"How is that one?"

"Poor. Worse than before," pronounced the pupil.

Kosen patiently wrote one sheet after another until eighty-four First Principles had been accumulated, still without the approval of the pupil.

Then, when the young man stepped outside for a few moments, Kosen thought: "Now is my chance to escape his keen eye," and he wrote hurridly, with a mind free from disctraction. "The First Principle."

"A masterpiece," pronounced the pupil.

dk42one wrote: I love thinking about this subject I think it is a core of our Jedi roots, our place in the force. It's at least put forth some good meditation about what I want a Jedi to be for my path.

Same here.

dk42one wrote: And you have Grey Jedi who wake up and say, wow, I'm both Black and White and embrace the two sides saying it is the Forces nature.

I guess a lot depends on how you define Black or Dark or Dark Side, etc. So far, the only complimentary description I've heard of it is "being socially rebellious" or "going against the system", etc. That's not what the Dark Side is to me at all, though, from my actual use of it. I suppose that would be the next great question -- How exactly do people here perceive the Dark Side? Most of us agree it is not the essence of evil, so then what is it?

Either way, if a person is genuinely motivated by the thought of striving to be as grey as possible each day, then more power to them, I guess. "Whatsoever thou findest to do, do it with thy might." Whether it constitutes the spirit of a Jedi would again depend on how they conceive of the Black that they are attempting to integrate, and how (and in what ways) they are attempting to perform that integration.

-David

There is so much to say and I'm late to the show...

Anyway, I was re-reading posts by FraterDavid and I like what he said here in post #72866

http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/General-Discussions/72666-Light-or-Shadow?limit=10&start=30#72866

Specifically, "What makes a Jedi is a Code, of honor and upright behavior, one that upholds the law so as to exalt virtue, defends the weak and the innocent, speaks honestly, seeks out the truth, respects all life, and has as a primary focus the fostering of Love and Service within the heart of each Jedi."

You said that post wouldn't make you many friends, but I agree with that description of a Jedi and I think the majority of Jedi at the Temple Of The Jedi Order would agree, too. Yet what you descibed a Jedi as being can aptly be written with no change in substance except the subject in question to this:

"What makes a Christian is a Code of honor and upright behavior, one that upholds the law so as to exalt virtue, defends the weak and the innocent, speaks honestly, seeks out the truth, respects all life, and has as a primary focus the fostering of Love and Service within the heart of each Christian."

Above that paragraph you said "But a Jedi is not simply a Force user" yet that is precisely (in my opinion) what makes us different from the attributes you applied to a Jedi that could just as easily apply to a Christian. Whether you believe in the Force literally or as a myth that gives your life direction, this is the separation between Jedi and other good people.

I point to my signature line: ren said it in jest, but I believe it and it makes a crucial point about how Jedi are different than other religionists.

So really, I agree with your description and ideal of what a Jedi should be and I don't think you'll lose any friends because of that, haha.

Learn_To_Know wrote:
Above that paragraph you said "But a Jedi is not simply a Force user" yet that is precisely (in my opinion) what makes us different from the attributes you applied to a Jedi that could just as easily apply to a Christian. Whether you believe in the Force literally or as a myth that gives your life direction, this is the separation between Jedi and other good people.

I point to my signature line: ren said it in jest, but I believe it and it makes a crucial point about how Jedi are different than other religionists.

I feel that all of the attributes of a Jedi could apply to a Christian just as they do to every other religion. From what I understood about the "Force" in Jediism, is that the "Force" describes the living force of creation. As far as I am aware, every single religion from every single culture has a belief regarding a "Force" that somehow created the world/universe/galaxy/whatever. This statement could also be turned around for Christians, "Whether you believe in the Holy Spirit literally or as a myth that gives your life direction, this is the separation between Christians and other good people." It takes a different form for every religion but I see it as one of the few things that actually binds every religion together and as part of the reason why everyone from every religion can be a part of Jediism.

I wanted to also comment on this post by FraterDavid (and please don't think I'm picking on you, I'm just going through your posts first, haha):

http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/General-Discussions/72666-Light-or-Shadow?limit=10&start=40#72913

I also believe there are such things as facts and opinion, but your brief definition of a Jedi is still opinion. In my opinion, haha!

You said it's not a matter of [your] opinion, but it is! Haha. Even though I agree with how you described a Jedi to be, it's still your opinion, no? How could it not be? Again, it's a well-reasoned opinion, and I agree with you, but it's still completely subjective and you might even have a Jedi here come out and say honesty is not always the best policy, thus negating one of your Jedi attributes. Who is right in that case?

Anyway, one more quick thought on one of your examples...

"To put it a different way, try walking in on the love of your life cheating on you, and tell me that your heartbreak and grief are merely your opinion."

That is a failure with attachment. Nothing belongs to us but ourselves. My wife doesn't belong to me, neither do my children. I take care of them and I try to make them comfortable, but if my wife so chooses to cheat on me, that is an experience in life that will shape me into something more. If I let heartbreak and grief overcome me, I've failed myself. This is my OPINION of course. Others may disagree, and I would gladly hear them out. But their opinion wouldn't be more valid than my own.

A favorite quote of mine from Joseph Campbell: "Where there is a way or a path, it's someone else's way. Each knight enters the forest at the most mysterious point and follows his own intuition. What each brings forth is what never before was on land or sea; the fulfillment of his unique potentialities, which are different from anybody else's."

How does this apply to the wife cheating on me? The path of grief and heartbreak are someone else's path. So is anger and rage at the same event. What is my path? Hopefully I've trained myself to be something different entirely....is this still opinion?

(Again, please don't think I'm attacking. I really enjoy your posts and I think you're adding a lot to this Temple, I mean, just look at how long this thread is! Haha.)

MTFBWY,
LTK

FraterDavid wrote: I guess a lot depends on how you define Black or Dark or Dark Side, etc. So far, the only complimentary description I've heard of it is "being socially rebellious" or "going against the system", etc. That's not what the Dark Side is to me at all, though, from my actual use of it. I suppose that would be the next great question -- How exactly do people here perceive the Dark Side? Most of us agree it is not the essence of evil, so then what is it?

If we wanted to look at Star Wars. There seems to be 3 basic ways to intepret what the dark side might mean;

1. Sith Code
2. Movie Jedi opinion
3. Movie Sith behaviour

On one hand, lets say the right hand, I think the movie Jedi might have had a deliberatly biased and misleading opinion to steer movie Jedi away from it.

On the other hand, say the left, I also think the movie Sith are acting as individuals and not representative of any particular religious order. Therefore they represent themselves as individual practitioners much more then role models of any dark side best practise.

Then we have the proverbial rosetta stone in the Sith Code. I use this to connect some dots between the two hands and disconnect other dots which might have seemed likely without it.

I personally like to take reference from Star Wars where I can find it, so then I take that over to the real world and see how it might fit into my beliefs in the nature of the real Force. Which I do to some extent, but from that point, for me, it comes down to context like:

There is no dark side to the Force in the way that a person can have a dark side.

I then just happen to find out that it all fits together in a certain way supporting the bits which make sense and discarding the bits which do not. Even then though each person might take different things from the same process. So for me it is just another way to access the Force except it strips away morals as unnecessary because its an inward path and uses emotion to control the otherwise harmful techniques. Therefore those who lose control over it (like in the movies) start acting without morals.

There, I think I managed effectively to not answer the question :silly:

Resticon wrote:

Learn_To_Know wrote:
Above that paragraph you said "But a Jedi is not simply a Force user" yet that is precisely (in my opinion) what makes us different from the attributes you applied to a Jedi that could just as easily apply to a Christian. Whether you believe in the Force literally or as a myth that gives your life direction, this is the separation between Jedi and other good people.

I point to my signature line: ren said it in jest, but I believe it and it makes a crucial point about how Jedi are different than other religionists.

I feel that all of the attributes of a Jedi could apply to a Christian just as they do to every other religion. From what I understood about the "Force" in Jediism, is that the "Force" describes the living force of creation. As far as I am aware, every single religion from every single culture has a belief regarding a "Force" that somehow created the world/universe/galaxy/whatever. This statement could also be turned around for Christians, "Whether you believe in the Holy Spirit literally or as a myth that gives your life direction, this is the separation between Christians and other good people." It takes a different form for every religion but I see it as one of the few things that actually binds every religion together and as part of the reason why everyone from every religion can be a part of Jediism.

Good points.

There is certainly many similarities between all religions, but in my opinion (that word again, haha) the Force is something entirely different than the God I was taught to believe in. My teachings about God growing up have shaped me on how I view God and how I view the Force and I see them as distinctly different.

God gives others strength, the Force gives me strength.

Some may say the Force and God are the same thing, but from what I understand about the Abrahamic religions, their God gets royally pissed if he's not acknowledged for all his follower's blessings and will destroy them.

But since I don't believe in God but I believe in the Force, here I am now, haha. Again, this is just LTK...just my opinion. I don't speak for the Temple...just myself.