Light or Shadow?

UraharaKiskue wrote: That is because I know a trap when I see one.

UraharaKiskue has gained +1 to Ackbarring.

Actually, I AM a trap, so I find both of the above statements offensive.

Br. John wrote: All these folks are invoking Jesus but getting to different conclusions.

Hence the whole "Jesus, please save me from your followers."

Br. John wrote: I chose the name Temple Of The Jedi Order because that's what I was inspired to do. I feel good about it. If it makes me feel better and others feel better – that's great. I'm very fond of things that make me feel better especially if they're not bad for me in the long run.

Reminds me of what Tony Stark said at the end of the Congressional hearing in Iron Man 2: "I serve this great [Jedi movement] at the pleasure of myself, and if there's one thing you can count on, it's me pleasuring myself."

Br. John wrote: We could be a New Age Spiritual moment and I can make a good argument that we have lot's in common with Unitarian Universalism. I'd say we're a Humanism too.

A Humanism? Or Humanist? Being a Humanism sounds like fun.

Br. John wrote:

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B. Kliban

LOL! Yes, but is that jar of goo he's holding half empty or half full? And is he letting it go to his head? I like the All-Seeing Eye under Philosophical there.

Wow, I am in a really silly mood today.

Fraternally,
-David

I am studying towards a Ph.D. in Comparative Religion, which is how I came across the TOTJO. Having studied it from an outside perspective, and now as I am starting to study from the inside (which I am very much enjoying by the way), I would say that Jediism would be classed, academically at least, as an Alternative Spirituality. Though, it could be argued that TOTJO is a Philosophy as we are all striving to find our personal centre's... follow our bliss, etc. In other words, striving to attain the 'good life'.

UraharaKiskue wrote: Actually Andy just echoed my thoughts. The very nature of the response was immense to what I wrote. I'm not calling out this house, nor any one or any group of people in it. I'm saying that often in the past I have been taken offensively for presenting my view. As my view was picked apart in an effort to destroy it what else could that be seen as?

Constructive criticism. At least from what I see from Jedi responding to you here. I can't answer for how your critique has been received elsewhere.

I'd think any reasonable request to audit a curriculum would be given authorization in the interest of encouraging openness as well as honesty and function. I have yet to make the request as my time has been taxed by recent projects.

I understand completely.

On this I will say I avoid the Prequels as the Jedi Order in those movies acted in such a way that the entire Order fell. Not much I find of value in the prequels save a few words here and there.

You are certainly within your rights to find value where ever you can find it, or discount it from anywhere. I personally find value in the prequel novels.

I shall endeavor to never use your standard in my own self analysis as a Jedi...I don't think we can talk any level of what standards there are for a Jedi then. You say one is a Jedi just by taking the name. I have a standard. By your methods if one calls themselves a pineapple they are one.

That's fine.

Consider this: a man is convicted of rape and murder and wears a Christian cross to his conviction hearing. He says he is a Christian, but he certainly didn't act like a Christian when he committed his crimes. Is he still a Christian?

I'd say yes, but his actions depict him as a poor example of a Christian.

Same thing for a Jedi: if a Jedi decides to sit around, play video games all day, never wanting to study or improve himself mentally, emotionally or physically is he still a Jedi? If he thinks he is one, I'll grant him that, but his actions depict him as a poor example of a Jedi.

The more I am reading your posts, the more similar I think our ideas are (thanks V-Tog for helping me open my mind! Re: your post earlier about only seeing one side...).

I think you (UraharaKiskue) and I have very similar ideals we strive for physically, mentally, spiritually, etc on our Jedi paths. I think the difference we may have is what I perceive to be you kind of looking down at this Temple as something less which I highly disagree with. Perhaps you may even be slightly envious of how successful this Temple is. I don't know. That's what it kind of feels like to me reading you. If I have misinterpreted you, I welcome your comments to the contrary...

I do not see Jedi as a religion, I see it as a path.

I see it as both, but I'm not stuck on the labels of either. If the Council here at the Temple Of The Jedi Order decided to remove any reference to this place being a religion, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest.

Aspiring to these things is the root of what being a Jedi is. However I would question the level of hostility I've received in expressing my view. I took great pains to be polite.

I hope you didn't feel the hostility from me. It's very difficult to read intentions and voice inflections from words on a screen. This has been a quite enjoyable conversation and I'm simply trying to understand you a little better. My questioning and comments would have been the same had I been meeting you in person.

Did I ever say it was not? Did I ever imply that Totjo was insufficient? I said I have a view, it has not been popular in the past and will not be popular in the future. However the fact your defending yourself using the same sources I point to implies that in your heart of hearts you know the importance of the principals.

I'll take you at your words even though I get the feeling, the intuition, that you believe the Temple Of The Jedi Order is insufficient in some areas.

I love this Temple! Others don't.

Some people love the LDS (Mormon doctrine). I gave that up.

And on and on and on...we follow the path that best speaks to us and we're all different on how we heed our own intuition through the Force...

I'm glad there are other Jedi sites out there that moves people to join and follow them. I want people to find peace and direction for their life. If they find it here, awesome! If they find it elsewhere, that's great too!

MTFBWY fellow Jedi,
LTK

I'm just making sure I have a post in this 'epic thread 'o doom' we got going on here. Can't remember if I already had or not.

I also ...

Light or Shadow ? How about both ?

http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/General-Discussions/66052-From-a-corner-of-the-library-?limit=10&start=10#73564

*smiles*

Agnostic- A belief which does not really know what to call their "higher". Within the Jedi Path, we have people that refer to "the Force" as God, the Holy Spirit, Magick, Tao and a number of other words to show that we are all linked across the planet in this belief that there is some underlying energy source which connects us all to one another. The "higher power" an Agnostic Jedi would not know exactly how to look at it would call it "the Force"- which is in constant flux of definition for the individual. Even after 10 years, I've not been able to hammer it completely out. Because like the Tao, it cannot be fully explained.

Atheist- Does not believe in any higher power. What they refer to as "the Force" would very much be the same as how I view it (only with a much less supernatural feel): Scientific Energy which is described in E=MC(squared).

Religion- I define this the same way it is defined by dictionary.com in it's first definition:
A set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Resticon wrote: And what if he then pulled out research to present to you saying the contrary. As I have said multiple different people can come to multiple different opinions of the same thing. What would your research be based off of? Another teacher or reference written by one?

Then it would mean I did poor research- and I don't do poor research, not when I'm proving someone's facts wrong. I have always looked for the most up-to-date information. I don't put myself on the academic line without checking, rechecking and then rechecking again. That's just sloppy.

Resticon wrote: Two things, one that would be improperly worded in my opinion. Knowing that you have hit something and believing that you killed it are both possible. But you must also consider the fact that if in your mind whatever you hit was alive then, yes, you would have killed it. The simple fact that you do not know it was a rock means nothing. What if I believe that the rock is alive and by hitting it, I did in fact kill it. We could literally do this all day. By simply believing in something you give it power. Whether it is fact in another's eyes does not matter. So yes your reality makes it truth...to you. It does not necessarily make it true to anyone else. Which is why everyone is entitled to their own beliefs.

I used that argument once, but I did it better- I used it from a psychological standpoint. To the individual, they have indeed committed a crime and there is nothing you can do to prove it otherwise. The best thing for them would be to place them in a psyche ward.

A reasonable person would assume you meant you murdered an actual person- it's not like you said "I killed the spirit of the rock." Stop trying to make this into something it is not- the words were "someone", apply it in a reasonable sense, it's obvious that I meant a HUMAN BEING. Now since the timing was not apparent, you have gotten out of the car almost immediately AFTER you ran over the rock, and you are jumping up and down screaming in HORROR as to how you have killed another human.

You killed no one. This is a fact that can be verified by the scientific method.

Resicon wrote: IWho is Charles.

UraharaKiskue (I'm sure he's answered this already, but I'm going through and finding posts to answer one at a time, so in case he didn't, here's your verification).

Resicon wrote: And it holds up perfectly in my mind which being the topic under discussion you can not say I am wrong without first proving that the topic itself is wrong. Which in my eyes you have still not done sufficiently. Thankfully it does not matter to me that much because I respect that what you believe and what I believe are different. I do not believe that we have to agree on this point. You have heard my side, and I yours and it would be fruitless to continue it without something changing the dynamic of this part of the conversation.[/color]

It doesn't apply, because you are talking in simile, a reasonable person understands the difference between simile and saying you ARE something. If you cannot discern the difference, then that is a problem you really need to come to terms with. You can say "I am like a Jedi, because I serve others", it does not make you one. You could say "I am like a Jedi because I believe in "the Force""-that does not make you a Jedi. In the Star Wars Universe, all of the following paths believed in "the Force":

Jedi
Sith
Baran Do Sage
Bendu
Potentium
Aing-Tii

And I'm sure there are a number of others, that's just a quick look up using wookiepedia. Here's my point, only a select few could be Jedi, because it carried a lot more weight than just a mere belief in "the Force". It has an entire heritage, system and action based belief behind it. Other philosophies/religions surrounding "the Force", carried a much different view of how you were to interact with "the Force", in order to bring about balance and the like.

Resicon wrote: Sun Tzu - "If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies will float by."

You do not need to know HOW to fight to know what fighting is. There are many ways to learn confidence and few of them involve fighting. I may be a pacifist but do I seem meek and easy to walk all over? With my pacifism intact, I feel we have had a thorough and lengthy PEACEFUL debate in which my voice has been heard just as yours has. Whether either of us knows martial arts or not has no bearing.

You realize that this is the worst argument you can use simply because you used Sun Tzu, who was an accomplished Martial Artist in his own right.

Resticon wrote: By making these principles available and guiding people towards them, do you not encourage people to learn it?

No, it's not encouragement, it's simply putting the information out there. To encourage someone is an active action, not passive. Guiding them to the material is simply pointing them in a direction, it doesn't encourage.

Beliefs can get you in a LOT of trouble. Look at David Berkowitz . Just because David Berkowitz believed he was doing the work of the Christian God, does not mean that this is reality, it simply means he understood it as a personal truth.

Resticon wrote: And yes, actually the core of Christianity has changed to the point that there are dozens, maybe even hundreds, of religions out there that claim to be better Christians than the others. They aren't either. Just different ways of interpreting the same book.

The core hasn't changed, just surrounding beliefs. And since then, the only thing they ever claim is Christianity as the overview. But they have dividing lines- Baptist, Catholic, Church of England, etc. But there is a name you can use if all you believe is in "the Force". It's called a "Force Realist".

wowow. Don't redefine words here:

agnosticism: the belief that some things are unknown and unknowable, things like the true nature of the universe, the existence of gods, etc. And agnostic Jedi is a Jedi who also does not know for sure what the universe is made of, or whether deities exist and do not believe they can ever know.

atheism: absence of belief in a deity. An atheist Jedi is a Jedi who does not also believe in a deity.

religion: (using oxford dictionary) a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion, from Old French, or from Latin religio(n-) 'obligation, bond, reverence', perhaps based on Latin religare 'to bind'. A religious Jedi is a Jedi who has great interest in being a Jedi, shows devotion/reverence to the jedi beliefs.

UraharaKiskue wrote:

I guess that would depend on how you view the Force now wouldn't it? If you believe it is the physical act of force jumping/force lightning(ing?)/force choking/force pushing etc. and that it can be taught to people, then by all means, please

Some level of ESP training, basic energy work as it concerns spiritual defense is a must, those who don't believe in spiritual attack have not ever been hit by one. The method of proof I will not stoop down to

I do not belive that I ever asked you to prove anything regarding the Force and it's existence or lack there-of. I personally believe the force is an entirely different thing than ESP (mostly because I have never seen ESP as anything more than a clever use of mentalism). If one is going to say that I MUST train in ESP to be considered a Jedi then I personally would need to be shown what it is and be satisfied with the answer before I could believe in it. The idea of saying that one has to believe in something to be a part of a group reminds me of several other religions that I am also not a part of for that reason.

UraharaKiskue wrote:

From my perspective, I see multiple issues with this part though. First, I am still curious how you would teach self-defense online besides the methods available in the "Library" of TotJO (Under the Martial Arts section here -->www.templeofthejediorder.org/home/library).

I'd require that every Knight and Master at the least have put some study be it self study or under the guidance of an instructor into some form of martial arts. Martial arts is a very broad term. Further I'd require they continue to improve those skills in the event they might be called to act as a Jedi in an emergency instead of standing back and watching a beat down happen. However this is what I would require, and it would allow me to avoid the legal issues of teaching it online. Mind you nothing compels TOTJO to move in the direction I would move in if I were heading it up.

My belief in pacifism does not necessarily mean that I do not intend to study a form of the martial arts at some point (whether I use it or not). But it does mean that I shouldn't HAVE to before I am "worthy" of calling myself a Jedi. I have actually been thoroughly looking into studying Aikikai for it's "attack-less" defense, fluidity, compassion for the well-being of your attacker (it's pretty tough to kill someone even accidentally by using this ryu jujutsu) and for the spiritual/meditative/harmonious aspect of it.

I'd also kind of like to learn Kendo...but that is more so that I know how to properly use a lightsaber

As a side note and not to derail the conversation. Aiki techniques can be very devastating, never for a moment think any martial art or form lacks killing potential. I can box you and not kill you because I keep my foot work in check and not use my entire weight behind each punch. Likewise on a throw if I twist slightly more in the direction of your fall and use the force of my frame I can go from something that will probably just break your shoulder to something that may kill. The power in any martial art is rooted at its intent and the person performing it. All art-forms have as much potential to destroy as they do to only annoy.

As for Kendo if your studying Aiki it's origins are in Kenjutsu forms so you should find it all meshing nicely honestly.

True, the potential is always there and depends on the motives of the person using it. As a pacifist and a Jedi, I feel that by simply using aikikai you can keep an attacker off-balance, refrain from ever striking out at them by merely rolling them to the ground using their own attacks, and simultaneously protect them from serious injury if you try. Though if you were to learn to box for example, you could (and people have) unintentionally kill a person, even with the purest of motives, simply by throwing a single punch. Same goes for every other martial style that has a physical attack aspect. This could be attributed to the nature of attacking someone during the course of self-defense who does not know how to properly defend themselves from your technique. Aikikai, if used properly, performs the defense for the attacker as well ass yourself without ever actually making an attack.