Light or Shadow?

well when you set yourself apart you're not exactly finding common ground, are you?

Alethea Thompson wrote: It's flawed in the fact that it's presented as an "either-or", as opposed to an "and-or"...why do we say "either-or"...it's saying the same thing! lol.

We say both forms because there is a lack of precision in the English language for the word "or".

Programmers have made it mean more specifically "either one or both" and have created a separate "xor" operator (exclusive-or) that means "only one or the other but not both".

So really "and/or" is the needless one. A pairing of "either" with "or" often implies exclusive-or, but due to the imprecision can also allow for choosing both in the sense that it is only trying to limit choices. For example, "you cannot go south; you can go either east or north." Could you also do both by going northeast? Sure. (As long as you're not playing a text-based M.U.D.)

Because of the imprecision, I can understand why people would want to say and/or, just to make sure there's no confusion. I typically mean "and/or" when I use "either-or", and will specifically say "but not both" if I mean exclusive-or. Zany English. Sigh.

-David

ren wrote: well when you set yourself apart you're not exactly finding common ground, are you?

It depends on how you set yourself apart. If your writing is sloppy to the point where people can't understand it or you are negative all the time or criticize everyone, then no. No common ground there.

But if you do it in a way that captures the imagination, ignites motivation, or wakes up parts of other people that they may not even have known they had (or didn't know that those parts were dormant), then you create a spiritual resonance and that is the most intimate common ground. Sometimes that is achieved by making assertions that may initially be received as jarring, at least to whatever element of complacence that a person may have within them.

To overcome our limitations, we must apply limitation of a different kind.

-David

When working with others, common ground is good, but so is progress. When the common ground is safe but stationary, there is no improvement. You have to have leaders that challenge the status quo and lead their apprentices to new levels of success. At the same time, when you are too far ahead, no one can follow, that common ground is lost and no one can see the path from one point to the next.

I try to refrain from giving drastic advice in the house of someone else. In the jedi community, each jedi site has their own training programs and those programs are like their babies. No one likes to hear they have an ugly baby. However, it would be irresponsible to not let someone know when they had a sick baby.

Now I'm not saying this site has a sick baby. I am just speaking in general because there are indeed sick babies out there, and ugly ones. I suppose this post is going no where but to say that a shake up and reevaluation at times is important. I am grateful that we are able to have discussions like these without people getting butt hurt about it.

Actually Andy just echoed my thoughts. The very nature of the response was immense to what I wrote. I'm not calling out this house, nor any one or any group of people in it. I'm saying that often in the past I have been taken offensively for presenting my view. As my view was picked apart in an effort to destroy it what else could that be seen as?

It would be foul, yes.

But what makes you think you have the credentials to even audit the curriculum and question our Jedi Masters? Are you the Overlord of all proper things Jedi? Just sayin....

I'd think any reasonable request to audit a curriculum would be given authorization in the interest of encouraging openness as well as honesty and function. I have yet to make the request as my time has been taxed by recent projects.

Ok, let's say you follow the movie regarding a handful of ideas, aren't you still super imposing your own views onto what parts you believe to be more important than others? What about Jedi needing to be force-wielding children who are taken into an Academy at a young age so they lose attachments to things? Should we start going into people's homes and telling them their child is force-sensitive and must come to our academy to study?

On this I will say I avoid the Prequels as the Jedi Order in those movies acted in such a way that the entire Order fell. Not much I find of value in the prequels save a few words here and there.

We are ALL Jedi. I look at you as a Jedi, because you believe yourself to be one. That's enough for me.

I shall endeavor to never use your standard in my own self analysis as a Jedi.

"We are ALL Jedi. I look at you as a Jedi, because you believe yourself to be one. That's enough for me. "

I don't think we can talk any level of what standards there are for a Jedi then. You say one is a Jedi just by taking the name. I have a standard. By your methods if one calls themselves a pineapple they are one.

As far as I am concerned every person who seeks out a way to learn more about themselves or a new belief system is in training. That is also the point of the initiate's program, Knight/Apprenticeship studies (as the apprentice), and Knight/Apprenticeship studies (as the Knight). It seems to me that everyone who comes here with a desire to learn and who physically makes an attempt is in training...and that training does not stop, unless they choose to leave the order of course.

Again we differ, I do not see Jedi as a religion, I see it as a path.

Maybe it's just me, but I think I missed the Kung-Fu clips from Star Wars. Also please re-read the 9th Basic Teaching of the Jedi. As for training with a fictional weapon...yeah need I even continue?

Technically the Gun did away with ALL forms of martial arts, and yet a sword is still an excellent home defense as is hand to hand training. In fact, you almost always have your hands on you, and most places you can carry a walking stick no problem.

This point I will give you. The Core Ideal is something I see represented in the maxims, code, creed, tenets and beliefs of Jediism. That being said, it is something that people here (not necessarily including Sith although on occasion they do show some of these ideals) aspire to. But we are all only human (no Twileks or Kel Dor here last I checked) and we are in many ways limited to what we can do by reality and physics. We get shot, we die. No magical blades of light to reflect them back at our attacker.

Aspiring to these things is the root of what being a Jedi is. However I would question the level of hostility I've received in expressing my view. I took great pains to be polite.

Would you be referring to this Skywalker Code?
www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Jedii...8-The-Skywalker-Code

The beliefs, code and creed are all present on this site in the Temple Doctrine section under the header JEDI BELIEVE: Feel free to check it out sometime if you're interested.

Did I ever say it was not? Did I ever imply that Totjo was insufficient? I said I have a view, it has not been popular in the past and will not be popular in the future. However the fact your defending yourself using the same sources I point to implies that in your heart of hearts you know the importance of the principals.

I see you talk about a willingness to excuse weakness...but who decides what is weakness? Is a 5 year old weak? Yes of course, in virtually every sense of the word. They have to grow their body, mind and soul as they age. Does it happen over night? Heck no! It takes years to get that far. The fact is those who are unwilling to strengthen do so out of fear, ignorance, emotion and because they have lived and had past thoughts about life. In order to strengthen a muscle, first you have to tear it. People who are unwilling to learn have to unlearn that desire before they can be taught. Why would we send someone away who clearly needs guidance?

Never said send them away. You imply I said send them away. Never giving up includes instructors pushing their students harder and harder.

BTW, since you're so fond of the movie references here's something you should understand. Luke did give up in RotJ when Sidious activated the Death Star. He lost control and started going to the Dark Side. He even went fully to the Dark Side in books afterwards. Apparently, even the great Skywalker you use as your example still had much to learn even after the movies were over about being a "True Jedi".

Exactly, so we should be expecting all Masters to be showing their improvement as well. Excellent, I love the direction your suggesting!!

FraterDavid wrote:

ren wrote: well when you set yourself apart you're not exactly finding common ground, are you?

It depends on how you set yourself apart. If your writing is sloppy to the point where people can't understand it or you are negative all the time or criticize everyone, then no. No common ground there.

But if you do it in a way that captures the imagination, ignites motivation, or wakes up parts of other people that they may not even have known they had (or didn't know that those parts were dormant), then you create a spiritual resonance and that is the most intimate common ground. Sometimes that is achieved by making assertions that may initially be received as jarring, at least to whatever element of complacence that a person may have within them.

To overcome our limitations, we must apply limitation of a different kind.

-David

Well, there's "being different" << that's most people,
and then there's "setting yourself apart", which is about making yourself different for the sake of not being like others, which is pretty much the opposite of "finding common ground".

Alethea Thompson wrote: I could debate how "wise" Yoda was all day. He's my least favorite character (barring Jar-Jar) from the movies. I can't say anything about his character in the EU, though, I don't read the books.

And sure you can, if you really analyze things from the movies-which is what inspired the Jedi Movement in the first place. The whole point of becoming a Jedi (since 1996) was to incorporate the ideals of the Jedi Path from the movie, and translate it into real concepts so that you could move forward in life rather than stay put without any purpose beyond "survive".

Very well, I shall not even begin to debate that point then, but I still put forth this question to you...if not by Yoda's or Luke's definition of who a Jedi is and how they should act, who do you believe would be the ideal Jedi for which we should aspire to? Is not every person unique? Has not every person done something that they probably shouldn't have at one time or another? By who's standard should we decide who is "Worthy" of being a Jedi? How long should we give people to meet this standard before we tell them they are not and can not be a Jedi?

In the second passage above you use the word "translate" to describe how we came to have these ideals. Unfortunately that word in and of it itself removes certainty from the equation. For example, the entire Catholic church recently rewrote the wording and in some cases the meaning behind much of there literature. Why? Because after recent studies it was determined that much of the translation was incorrect. By translating something there is always a little bit that is distorted in the process. People interpret things differently because they are individuals and as such should not necessarily be held accountable to the interpretations of another.

If you were to say the sky is blue....could I not interpret this to mean baby blue where-as you meant it as navy blue? Are either of us incorrect? No, we simply interpret one statement differently based on what we see when we look at the sky. Should we then judge a color-blind person because to him the sky is not blue at all? Should we declare him unworthy of even looking at the sky because of the way he interprets it?

What about the guy that says the sky is red, is that cool too?

UraharaKiskue wrote: Actually Andy just echoed my thoughts. The very nature of the response was immense to what I wrote. I'm not calling out this house, nor any one or any group of people in it. I'm saying that often in the past I have been taken offensively for presenting my view. As my view was picked apart in an effort to destroy it what else could that be seen as?

No one is attempting to destroy what you have said, merely spoken other opinions on our analysis of what you said.

It would be foul, yes.

But what makes you think you have the credentials to even audit the curriculum and question our Jedi Masters? Are you the Overlord of all proper things Jedi? Just sayin....

UraharaKiskue wrote: I'd think any reasonable request to audit a curriculum would be given authorization in the interest of encouraging openness as well as honesty and function. I have yet to make the request as my time has been taxed by recent projects.

Do you audit a class at a college by sitting and listening and learning or by approaching the teacher after class, not to ask him further questions, but to tell him that he is teaching his class wrong?

Ok, let's say you follow the movie regarding a handful of ideas, aren't you still super imposing your own views onto what parts you believe to be more important than others? What about Jedi needing to be force-wielding children who are taken into an Academy at a young age so they lose attachments to things? Should we start going into people's homes and telling them their child is force-sensitive and must come to our academy to study?

UraharaKiskue wrote: On this I will say I avoid the Prequels as the Jedi Order in those movies acted in such a way that the entire Order fell. Not much I find of value in the prequels save a few words here and there.

LOL, you just did it again. You determined what you felt was important from the movies and then say that you avoid the prequels because there is nothing to be learned there. The Order is what it was. There is not currently one Jedi in the entire world. There are many. And that Order had been around for thousands of years before it fell. And for the record, that information was not even based on Episode 1-3 but rather on the EU.

We are ALL Jedi. I look at you as a Jedi, because you believe yourself to be one. That's enough for me.

UraharaKiskue wrote: I shall endeavor to never use your standard in my own self analysis as a Jedi.

And that is your right, but to tell others that their views are wrong is very un-Jedi-like behavior as far as I am concerned.

"We are ALL Jedi. I look at you as a Jedi, because you believe yourself to be one. That's enough for me. "

UraharaKiskue wrote: I don't think we can talk any level of what standards there are for a Jedi then. You say one is a Jedi just by taking the name. I have a standard. By your methods if one calls themselves a pineapple they are one.

And if I said that I interpret the word "Pineapple" to mean a person who has a hard prickly outer shell but is soft squishy inside and then say that I BELIEVE I am a pineapple...am I one then? The fact is that your world is what you determine it is. Words have meaning so long as someone believes they do. It is not the act of "calling" oneself a Jedi that makes them such. It is the act of believing that they are. No matter how they define the word or ideals of being a Jedi.

As far as I am concerned every person who seeks out a way to learn more about themselves or a new belief system is in training. That is also the point of the initiate's program, Knight/Apprenticeship studies (as the apprentice), and Knight/Apprenticeship studies (as the Knight). It seems to me that everyone who comes here with a desire to learn and who physically makes an attempt is in training...and that training does not stop, unless they choose to leave the order of course.

UraharaKiskue wrote: Again we differ, I do not see Jedi as a religion, I see it as a path.

When did I call it a religion? My religion is Catholicism, my Dogma and way of life is that of Jedi.

Maybe it's just me, but I think I missed the Kung-Fu clips from Star Wars. Also please re-read the 9th Basic Teaching of the Jedi. As for training with a fictional weapon...yeah need I even continue?

UraharaKiskue wrote: Technically the Gun did away with ALL forms of martial arts, and yet a sword is still an excellent home defense as is hand to hand training. In fact, you almost always have your hands on you, and most places you can carry a walking stick no problem.

If the gun did away with all martial art forms then what is Krav Maga? That style was created in the 1930s WELL after guns had been developed and were readily available. And in my state, if I kill a burglar with a sword in my home, I'd go to jail for murder and be sued out the ying-yang by the "victim's" families. For the record, I consider myself to be a pacifist. Why should I practice martial arts or any other form of self-defense? I prefer to let my mouth do the talking, not my fists.

This point I will give you. The Core Ideal is something I see represented in the maxims, code, creed, tenets and beliefs of Jediism. That being said, it is something that people here (not necessarily including Sith although on occasion they do show some of these ideals) aspire to. But we are all only human (no Twileks or Kel Dor here last I checked) and we are in many ways limited to what we can do by reality and physics. We get shot, we die. No magical blades of light to reflect them back at our attacker.

UraharaKiskue wrote: Aspiring to these things is the root of what being a Jedi is. However I would question the level of hostility I've received in expressing my view. I took great pains to be polite.

What hostility? I am merely expressing an alternate viewpoint...which is dripping with humor and sarcasm (another form of humor) if I might add.

Would you be referring to this Skywalker Code?
www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Jedii...8-The-Skywalker-Code

The beliefs, code and creed are all present on this site in the Temple Doctrine section under the header JEDI BELIEVE: Feel free to check it out sometime if you're interested.

UraharaKiskue wrote: Did I ever say it was not? Did I ever imply that Totjo was insufficient? I said I have a view, it has not been popular in the past and will not be popular in the future. However the fact your defending yourself using the same sources I point to implies that in your heart of hearts you know the importance of the principals.

The fact that I believe in the principles does not imply that everyone here must in my eyes. What I believe and what path I take is my own and I do not expect nor even ask that anyone else follows it. I would hope that they would follow their own path...no matter what direction it may take them and no matter what they believe.

I see you talk about a willingness to excuse weakness...but who decides what is weakness? Is a 5 year old weak? Yes of course, in virtually every sense of the word. They have to grow their body, mind and soul as they age. Does it happen over night? Heck no! It takes years to get that far. The fact is those who are unwilling to strengthen do so out of fear, ignorance, emotion and because they have lived and had past thoughts about life. In order to strengthen a muscle, first you have to tear it. People who are unwilling to learn have to unlearn that desire before they can be taught. Why would we send someone away who clearly needs guidance?

UraharaKiskue wrote: Never said send them away. You imply I said send them away. Never giving up includes instructors pushing their students harder and harder.

If you are not implying that we send them away then what are you saying? As far as I am aware everything you have described as being a Jedi is available here in some location for people to learn?

I have also seen you mention that your views "will not be changed" throughout this thread. While I believe you have a right to feel that way, you seem to have closed your mind to alternative views and see them as hostile attacks on your beliefs. My teachers do not push me nor do I w2ant them to. How can a teacher push me in a direction if they do not even know what direction is mine to take? They can offer wisdom and alternative viewpoints which I may choose to learn or not. I personally believe that to not do so would be a waste of my time here. "I shall not seek so much to be"..."understood as to understand." Attempt to open your mind to these alternative views and you will understand more. To keep your mind so narrow, you only push for others to understand you and to agree with you.

BTW, since you're so fond of the movie references here's something you should understand. Luke did give up in RotJ when Sidious activated the Death Star. He lost control and started going to the Dark Side. He even went fully to the Dark Side in books afterwards. Apparently, even the great Skywalker you use as your example still had much to learn even after the movies were over about being a "True Jedi".

UraharaKiskue wrote: Exactly, so we should be expecting all Masters to be showing their improvement as well. Excellent, I love the direction your suggesting!!

How do you know what the masters here have learned from their apprentices? We here do not believe that learning stops once you become a Knight.

UraharaKiskue says, "I do not see Jedi as a religion, I see it as a path."

Are you saying we're not a church and this is not our religion?