Light or Shadow?

Andy Spalding wrote: What about the guy that says the sky is red, is that cool too?

I have seen a red sky and could understand his interpretation of it as well. Even if someone were to say the sky is fluorescent indigo because that was how they saw the sky, who is anyone to tell them that they are wrong.

We should accept that it may be what he sees and his view and leave it at that. You may not see the sky the same way but wouldn't that just make the sky more beautiful? Could you not look at a painting of someone else's work and see a bright green sky and say "Wow, I've never seen that before. It looks so beautiful that way."

UraharaKiskue says, "I do not see Jedi as a religion, I see it as a path."

Are you saying we're not a church and this is not our religion?

I said I do not see Jedi as a religion, I see it as a path. Is that really such a dangerous idea that you of all people just tried to put words in my mouth Brother?

I say what I say, I mean what I mean, and not one word greater or lesser.

Do you audit a class at a college by sitting and listening and learning or by approaching the teacher after class, not to ask him further questions, but to tell him that he is teaching his class wrong?

When did I do anything comparable to this? Unpopular opinions must be an attack now.

Resticon wrote: I have seen a red sky and could understand his interpretation of it as well. Even if someone were to say the sky is fluorescent indigo because that was how they saw the sky, who is anyone to tell them that they are wrong.

We should accept that it may be what he sees and his view and leave it at that. You may not see the sky the same way but wouldn't that just make the sky more beautiful? Could you not look at a painting of someone else's work and see a bright green sky and say "Wow, I've never seen that before. It looks so beautiful that way."

Then why bother with a training program? Why bother with a doctrine?

I said not by Yoda, and then stated I didn't like Jar-Jar. I've never claimed I would not hold someone to the ideals set by the fictional Jedi. Of the main ones portrayed in the movies ("big names"), I'd use the following to determine what it means to be a Jedi: Luke, Old Ben, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Qui-Gon Jinn and Mace Windu. Yoda was nothing more than a guy that thought he was wise, and managed to get the favor of those around him (if you only base things off of the movies).

The four listed constantly strived to improve themselves and their knowledge base.. Luke, given a very swift crash course, had to overcome inner conflicts to rise to the occasion. They were all about forward movement. Yoda's one battle scene was forced, because the audience wanted to see the little green man fight. In fact, that is one of the primary reasons I didn't like him- his entire character felt like it was being forced in the prequels to show you that he was so well respected as a teacher and councilor that it was only logical Luke train under him in the O.T.

You apply "translate" in the term of language. English is english. The language hasn't changed so much that we can't begin to pull from it.

Baby Blue vs. Navy Blue- actually yes, it does make you wrong if I can pull out a color coded pad and give you the difference in ranges between what the sky color is at that moment and what you are wanting to call it.

But the sky is separate from you- it is distinguished by scientific variants. Should a color-blinded person not be able to admire the sky? Of course they can, and they can admire it for a number of reasons- it doesn't need to be it's color. But they should not be expected to claim they are the sky itself, because scientifically they are not the sky- they are human.

UraharaKiskue wrote:

Do you audit a class at a college by sitting and listening and learning or by approaching the teacher after class, not to ask him further questions, but to tell him that he is teaching his class wrong?

When did I do anything comparable to this? Unpopular opinions must be an attack now.

UraharaKiskue wrote: My seal of approval is not required for your continual actions nor is it even requested. I respect that you've gained a large community. However I stand by my stance. Using the fiction as an inspiration and a basic guideline (I barely went out of the first 3 movies) there are areas in here that are lacking. That is a fact. Now you can claim that this group splits off from that but then I ask the question "Why the name Jedi?" if it is not just something to make you FEEL BETTER about the fact that it is just a New Age Spiritualist movement that is going on here?

^^ Uh, here. ^^

Andy Spalding wrote:

Resticon wrote: I have seen a red sky and could understand his interpretation of it as well. Even if someone were to say the sky is fluorescent indigo because that was how they saw the sky, who is anyone to tell them that they are wrong.

We should accept that it may be what he sees and his view and leave it at that. You may not see the sky the same way but wouldn't that just make the sky more beautiful? Could you not look at a painting of someone else's work and see a bright green sky and say "Wow, I've never seen that before. It looks so beautiful that way."

Then why bother with a training program? Why bother with a doctrine?

As a set of guidelines that are open to interpretation doctrine is fairly basic and unanimous across almost every religion. That being said, there are those who would interpret these things differently and there view has inherent worth in it as well. If everyone just followed these same basic guidelines and said that made them a Jedi, what would make them different from any other religion that promotes the same beliefs? The way I INTERPRETED Jediism and the reason I joined is because of the over-whelming abundance of love, understanding, knowledge, acceptance and peace that this Temple offered as opposed to other beliefs. It does not take the place of my religion but rather offers me a way of living. To others it is a belief.

I feel that the training program is fairly basic in that it appears to be a study of other religions, not to point out what is wrong with them but merely to show alternative viewpoints from other people who believe wildly different things and yet show that they still believe in common things. It is those common things that Jediism celebrates. Not Star Wars. While the Star Wars movies and EU have some great examples of the beliefs and teachings of Jediism, who is to say that if you don't follow their path you are wrong. Part of the training program helps us to learn that there is no right or wrong way to view anything because every person is unique in how they perceive things.

The greeks thought lightning came from Zeus, waves from Poseidon. They claim to have seen these Gods many times. Other people claim to have seen Angels or Jesus himself. Can you say with 100% certainty who is right or wrong? I can't. When I die, maybe I'll see what happens, maybe not. Either way, I believe in something so that I have a path to follow, a reason for being if you will. I do not however claim that there is no possibility that I could be wrong. I just believe what I believe and let others believe what they believe. Why would you want everyone in the world to believe what you believe and act like tin soldiers?

Resticon wrote: Do you audit a class at a college by sitting and listening and learning or by approaching the teacher after class, not to ask him further questions, but to tell him that he is teaching his class wrong?

Just as a side note, yes, I actually have done this- on multiple occasions. If I heard something that sounded off, I would go research it, and then present it the next day to the teacher. I learned a lot about the sort of education teachers get, and just how terrible public school placement was in regards to putting teachers in areas they were not qualified to teach in.

Resticon wrote: And if I said that I interpret the word "Pineapple" to mean a person who has a hard prickly outer shell but is soft squishy inside and then say that I BELIEVE I am a pineapple...am I one then? The fact is that your world is what you determine it is. Words have meaning so long as someone believes they do. It is not the act of "calling" oneself a Jedi that makes them such. It is the act of believing that they are. No matter how they define the word or ideals of being a Jedi.

Then let's try a different approach. You drive down the street, and run over a small rock just large enough for you to feel that you've run over it. You then get out of the vehicle and swear up and down to people that you have killed someone that was on the road. In your head, you killed someone, in reality you have done nothing of the sort. Does your reality make it truth? Or is it merely your imagination?

It's not good to use analogies like these. They do not hold up to scrutiny. The Pineapple analogy wasn't all that great either, Charles.

If I tell you that I am a Muslim, but I do not believe that Mohammad is a messenger of God, nor do I pray 5 times a day, and I believe the Quran is a piece of out-dated literature, am I truly a Muslim?

Resticon wrote: If the gun did away with all martial art forms then what is Krav Maga? That style was created in the 1930s WELL after guns had been developed and were readily available. And in my state, if I kill a burglar with a sword in my home, I'd go to jail for murder and be sued out the ying-yang by the "victim's" families. For the record, I consider myself to be a pacifist. Why should I practice martial arts or any other form of self-defense? I prefer to let my mouth do the talking, not my fists.

"Most people who fight do so because they do not know anything about fighting. Those who train in fighting... seldomly need to fight."
~ Paladin Vandor Draconis

To expand on this, it's because you have such a commanding presence, that your voice carries more with the confidence you gain from learning to fight. You grow an appreciation for the abilities you have gained in the learning process. Being a pacifist is great, but knowing that you have everything available to you in order to maintain your pacifism carries a great deal of weight behind it. Just sayin'.

Resticon wrote: The fact that I believe in the principles does not imply that everyone here must in my eyes. What I believe and what path I take is my own and I do not expect nor even ask that anyone else follows it. I would hope that they would follow their own path...no matter what direction it may take them and no matter what they believe.

Then why not encourage those who wish to be Jedi strive for the same ideals, but those whom do not follow them to find a path that is better for them? It might be Christianity, it might be Paganism, it might be the Sith Path, or any other number of different paths. Just because you hold the Jedi to a standard, does not preclude encouraging others to find paths that are NOT Jedi. I do it all the time, because sometimes being a Jedi is not beneficial to one's personal growth. They tend to find their own way through just becoming a greater influence in their field of study (computer science, etc) or by becoming more involved in their church, etc. The goal is to find what works, and if you aren't going to push for someone to become a better Jedi, then really are they moving forward? Or are they allow to simply rest in place while the entire world grows up around them?

I know plenty of people who are just "satisfied" with where they are at, they never take the challenges to immerse themselves into something which would help them grow closer to either themselves, the community or their deity. That is a sad state of affairs. But by getting involved with their lives and helping them find something that they can truly relate to, and truly grow in, that creates positive personal growth. A Jedi can help one get there, but it doesn't mean that the person they are helping will be a Jedi. They might just become a great medical doctor that prefers allowing their emotions to help them make tough judgement calls (a Jedi, in my system, would detach themselves from their emotions to make the hard logical decisions. When the decision has been made and executed, then they can deal with the stress that follows in a healthy manner).

Resticon wrote: I have also seen you mention that your views "will not be changed" throughout this thread. While I believe you have a right to feel that way, you seem to have closed your mind to alternative views and see them as hostile attacks on your beliefs. My teachers do not push me nor do I w2ant them to. How can a teacher push me in a direction if they do not even know what direction is mine to take? They can offer wisdom and alternative viewpoints which I may choose to learn or not. I personally believe that to not do so would be a waste of my time here. "I shall not seek so much to be"..."understood as to understand." Attempt to open your mind to these alternative views and you will understand more. To keep your mind so narrow, you only push for others to understand you and to agree with you.

Are you not also closed-minded to what Charles has said? You want to allow everyone the opportunity to improve, but have you considered that the way the Jedi Path was meant to progress has gotten very far from those whom started the movement? There is a reason that some the idea behind "Light, Dark and Shadow" started. It was because some people didn't like the idea of adhering strictly to the Jedi archetype. The Dark Aspect was intended to be affiliated with the Sith Path, later people outside created their own "Dark Jedi" because the EU allowed for them. The Shadow Aspect covered people that are about forward action, but they cultivated ideals from both the Dark and Light Aspects to determine their morality. This was also something that was supported by the idea of the EU. The Light was always affiliated with simply "Jedi", and has never faltered from the original archetype outlined in the SWU. They based their training on the same types of base material used for training younglings, and then you could define how you would serve the order, while relying on your training to progress the order forward. Even the librarian was trained in the art of defense. These bits and pieces of the Jedi Path were what the Old Guard based everything off of, so is it honoring the origin of our path by stepping away from it?

To use Christianity as an example- you cannot merely claim to be a Christian and expect to be taken seriously by God Himself. Every preacher teaches this. Not that the message reaches everyone like it should, but it is taught none-the-less. They accept people into their home, not to call them Christians, but to teach them how to become Christians in hopes they will follow God. At the end of the day, no matter how many different variations their are to the Christian faith, none of the churches deviate from the core origin for what it means to be a Christian:

That Jesus Christ was a real person.
He lived and died on the cross for our sins.
We no longer have to give sacrifices to God, because Jesus was our sacrifice.
To live in accordance with the teachings of Christ, not merely to believe.
In order to be allowed into heaven, you must accept Christ into your heart.

And I'm sure there are a few other miscellaneous other things which link us all together- but you get the point. Even after 2000 years, we've not gotten away from the core. However, with the Jedi Path, it seems that some are willing to give up on the core that was only 15 years ago. This is why what you describe is "Force Realist" and not "Jedi". There IS an archetype to adhere to. And by your own admission, you strive to live by it, but living by the code, creed and so forth. It shows you recognize the importance behind it.

UraharaKiskue wrote:

UraharaKiskue says, "I do not see Jedi as a religion, I see it as a path."

Are you saying we're not a church and this is not our religion?

I said I do not see Jedi as a religion, I see it as a path. Is that really such a dangerous idea that you of all people just tried to put words in my mouth Brother?

I say what I say, I mean what I mean, and not one word greater or lesser.

Do you audit a class at a college by sitting and listening and learning or by approaching the teacher after class, not to ask him further questions, but to tell him that he is teaching his class wrong?

When did I do anything comparable to this? Unpopular opinions must be an attack now.

Let's see. I'm not sure about what you think. I quote your statement about which I'm inquiring. I ask you a question. The question is do you agree with the statements Temple Of The Jedi Order is not a church and its Jediism is not a religion?

That's putting words in your mouth and accusing you of things?

I still don't know what your answer is.

"Part of the training program helps us to learn that there is no right or wrong way to view anything because every person is unique in how they perceive things." ~Resticon

Within reason (it's wrong to murder someone out of revenge)

Now, in terms of unique prospective from a common sense format- Jedi in the films needed to understand this as well, otherwise they ended up interfering with the lives of others in a way that would not benefit them directly. But they were still distinguished by how they lived the path...

What I do disagree with, however, in the films, is that the path was indoctrinated into the Jedi (minus Luke and those that came with the NJO [as I understand it]) from a very young age rather than giving them the choice to live the path. In the real world, this is something that we can correct, because this path really isn't for everyone- just like Paganism isn't for everyone, or Christianity.

Alethea Thompson wrote: I said not by Yoda, and then stated I didn't like Jar-Jar. I've never claimed I would not hold someone to the ideals set by the fictional Jedi. Of the main ones portrayed in the movies ("big names"), I'd use the following to determine what it means to be a Jedi: Luke, Old Ben, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Qui-Gon Jinn and Mace Windu. Yoda was nothing more than a guy that thought he was wise, and managed to get the favor of those around him (if you only base things off of the movies).

The four listed constantly strived to improve themselves and their knowledge base.. Luke, given a very swift crash course, had to overcome inner conflicts to rise to the occasion. They were all about forward movement. Yoda's one battle scene was forced, because the audience wanted to see the little green man fight. In fact, that is one of the primary reasons I didn't like him- his entire character felt like it was being forced in the prequels to show you that he was so well respected as a teacher and councilor that it was only logical Luke train under him in the O.T.

None of these men would fit up to the definition set forth earlier of a "True Jedi". Luke went to the dark side. Obi-Wan was an angry teenager who actually left the order and Qui-Gon for a while. Qui-Gon, to me, is one of the best examples of a great person but not a great Jedi. His judgement was regularly clouded with fear and anger due to his first apprentice falling to the dark side which caused him to give up on Obi-Wan for a while. And Mace Windu was possibly the closest to what was described as a "True Jedi" but he was also a Master and had his own share of faults as well. He was quite possibly the least compassionate Jedi from the movies. No one is perfect but they were Jedi anyways and the more they learned, the better they got.

Alethea Thompson wrote: You apply "translate" in the term of language. English is english. The language hasn't changed so much that we can't begin to pull from it.

English is indeed English but as shown multiple times, in this thread alone, a simple sentence can be seen many different ways by different people.

Alethea Thompson wrote: Baby Blue vs. Navy Blue- actually yes, it does make you wrong if I can pull out a color coded pad and give you the difference in ranges between what the sky color is at that moment and what you are wanting to call it.

Perhaps but what if the way my eyes perceives color is different than the way yours do? I wear blue contact lenses...could that not change the shade of something by even a fraction in my eyes? If I asked you to pick out the color of my text right now, what color would you say it was in relation to the entire color wheel? I don't know that even I can, so how could I ask you to? We can just simply agree as to the fact that it is blue. But it could even be seen by some people as black.

Alethea Thompson wrote: But the sky is separate from you- it is distinguished by scientific variants. Should a color-blinded person not be able to admire the sky? Of course they can, and they can admire it for a number of reasons- it doesn't need to be it's color. But they should not be expected to claim they are the sky itself, because scientifically they are not the sky- they are human.

Again back to the Pineapple statement from earlier...to that person could the word "sky" mean a person who is open, free and peaceful. We give words meaning. Words do not give items meaning. In the words of a sermon I read the other day...

"If I was to hold up a pen in front of you and ask:

"What is it?"

I would presume someone, aside from perhaps looking at me strangely, would reply:

"A pen."

The issue arises however that 'pen' is not what it is. 'pen' is a sound. What I am holding is not a sound. You see simply saying 'pen' doesn't tell me anything more about what it is that I'm holding than simply saying nothing. If someone wanted to 'tell me' what it was then a better way of doing so would be to take the pen and start writing. That tells me much more about what it 'is'

The importance of what something 'is' is not in its name but in what it does"

So, yes, he could say that he is the "Sky" so long as that is what he attributes to the word "Sky."