Light or Shadow?

Historical? You mean such as famous figures? Probably no. However I am sure there were individuals who lived the Jedi Path. I know it's closely intertwined with the traditions of the Samurai so I'd need to have a greater depth of knowledge of the history of that group to even begin to pick one out for you.

I started a list earlier Metsu, right before I took it private...

Nelson Madella, MLK Jr., Ghandi, Jesus... lol...

@UraharaKiskue...

Back to the martial aspect...

How would Hawkins do that?

Now I've pointed out in a PM to Alethea, and in other threads, that defending the weak can happen in other ways besides physical...

Calling the police, teaching, defending in court...

Is that what you meant?

UraharaKiskue wrote: Perhaps your looking at too limited interpretation of the ideals I presented. An inability to live up to the ideal is expected to a degree, that is why its an ideal. However the inability to live up to it to the best of your ability is laziness. If Mr. Hawkings is simply not willing to take the time to be a Jedi I have no problem in not saying he is one. It's as simple as that.

I'm not looking at any specific ideals here, so I can't be interpreting them in a limited way I'm just questioning - in general, what are these ideals that we're going to compromise on for Steven Hawkings?

I struggle to understand how any of us could know how much time an effort anyone else puts into living life as a Jedi. Yes, we can see that someone may not be spending time developing a skill or area of expertise that we see as important to our own path. But they may be spending huge amounts of time extending their expertise in other areas...would you not agree?

I agree with the idea that there have always been Jedi, because there was also always the force. Someone who uses the force for the betterment of those around him is a Jedi. Like was stated earlier, there are also those who use the force for the suffering of those around them and the betterment of one's personal circumstances. History is a great place to go for example.

Joseph Campbell for example. He has changed millions of minds forever, saved them from the spiritually fatal error of forgetting myth.

George Lucas, another Jedi, for giving a name and a feel to an idea that is central to our humanity and our connection with these unseen powers of the world around us.(Even though arguments could definitely be made that he has turned very Sith)

Albert Einstein, responsible for a large portion of our modern view of the world, an expansion of our understanding, and the championing of never separating Science completely from Spirituality.

Then in ancient times, men like Leonidas of Sparta, or Achilles, or Moses. These to me are Jedi in everything but title. And i liked what was said to about the difference between being a grey Jedi and a light Jedi. Failing to do the right thing 100% of the time doesn't make you a grey Jedi, Buddha before becoming one of the beacons of humankind, was an oblivious Siddhartha.

So in short, I feel a Jedi is an instrument of Good in the hands of the force. Or like was stated before, the Destination, or Ideal that one holds, not your individual failures/successes along the way determines what you are in the now.

And it is a constantly changing thing what we are, Anakin was destined to become Vader, but it was ultimately his choice. And he died as a Jedi, not a Grey Jedi.

White is the sum of all light, Black the absence of light, no one in reality is either, we are all shades in between. So it is not our current sum, but our desire that shapes our path before us.

They might not have called the Force the Force, or been aware of there harnessing of its gifts, but they were Jedi.

I'm not looking at any specific ideals here, so I can't be interpreting them in a limited way I'm just questioning - in general, what are these ideals that we're going to compromise on for Steven Hawkings?

I struggle to understand how any of us could know how much time an effort anyone else puts into living life as a Jedi. Yes, we can see that someone may not be spending time developing a skill or area of expertise that we see as important to our own path. But they may be spending huge amounts of time extending their expertise in other areas...would you not agree?

Nothing would be compromised.

The Force: An energy field that is both manipulable, sensible, and yet interconnected to all other energies if not the basis for all energy in existence.

He's in a very apt position to being able to meditate honestly. I don't see why he couldn't develop a vast level of energy awareness and capability despite his injured body.

Training To Improve: A Core Message of the movies is Luke and his Growth through hard work, training, discipline, and focus.

While Hawkings could never improve his physical condition his ability to expand his knowledge and thereby the knowledge he can pass down to others in the form of understanding, wisdom, the written word are legendary. If applied to the Jedi Arts he would be more than capable of assisting others in their improvement.

Skill in the Martial Forms: Again a Core Message from the movies as represented by the Lightsaber and the improvement of skill we see in Luke.

Skill is more than just physical capacity. Through study Hawkings could gain a level of understanding rivaling great masters of the past. True he would never be able to carry out the role as a protector directly but through his vast intellect he could help others carry that role out better. Yoda could not fight by the time we see him in Empire but he managed to train Luke just fine.

A Core Ideal: The Core Ideal presented in the movies is one of compassion, strength, dedication, determination, a never give up attitude and a will and drive to make a difference. This too we can practice.

He can not live up to this?

The Jedi Code: The Jedi Code is more than just a 4 line thing, it's a collection of maxims, a code of action (the 4-5line Anderson Code), as well as a Guideline for what defines a Jedi (The Skywalker Code). Is it so much that we can ask people if not to completely match this ideal then to at least STRIVE TO REACH THE IDEAL? Certainly people can, will, and do fail all the time. The movies are all about Failure. Luke Fails at the cave, Fails to Kill Vader, Fails to defend himself against the Emperor. However he does not simply say "This is to hard" or "I can't do this" or "This is unrealistic".

For Hawkings this would be an incredibly difficult path but his continual pursuit of it would allow him a depth of understanding of the Code(s) as well as the ideas they are founded upon. Further an unwillingness to give up his goal in this would exemplify him as a Jedi if he choose the path and stayed with it despite never being able to train physically yet still learning all he could of the martial ways to pass that on. In fact I would expect him to know MORE of the martial than I would any Jedi excelling in any other area because he ultimately would have to make up for with knowledge what his body would learn normally with experience to pass it on.

What I see a lot of in most of the community is a willingness to excuse weakness not because one can not strengthen beyond that weakness but because one is UNWILLING TO. However there are a SELECT FEW INDIVIDUALS I hold in high regard because despite whatever comes their way they NEVER GIVE UP. That is part of the CORE of what a Jed is, as well as the strive to adhere to the Code, Creed, and Ideals.

I see many jumped on the Martial which is a telling trait to me. I never said you must master it, I said it is obvious that this is part of the path.

I struggle to understand how any of us could know how much time an effort anyone else puts into living life as a Jedi. Yes, we can see that someone may not be spending time developing a skill or area of expertise that we see as important to our own path. But they may be spending huge amounts of time extending their expertise in other areas...would you not agree?

Communication face to face, over voice, video, phone, what have you is a first step. Holding ourselves accountable to at least a basic level of ability in all of the Jedi Arts and THEN Focusing on expanding that ability is another. To paraphrase what one of the greatest Jedi of all time once said to me "Then we're in a situation where someone is bleeding, can someone bandage this wound? Oh wait that isn't my area of Jedi Expertise. That is an Epic Fail! This man is thrashing about, help me restrain him!! Sorry that isn't my area of Jedi Expertise. Again an Epic Fail. When someone can not do these most basic tasks because they are so focused in other areas they are a disgrace to the name."

His words summed it up better than mine. Practical Skills, Basic Self Defense, The Force, and T he Philosophy, these are the corner stones of what it means to be a Jedi in the real world. They are the emulation of everything that inspired us. To neglect any one root within the tree is to destroy the tree and grow a new plant that is very specifically NOT Jedi.

Again this is my view. It is harsh, but it is fairly complete. You may find yourself excluded from it. If that makes you feel like you need to train harder in some areas that is also fine. If it makes you feel a failure then take heart, nothing is stopping you from doing better. If it makes you think I'm an arrogant gentleman then ask yourself what it is I've said that offends you? Is it that I set the bar too high, or is it that you realize you will not rise to meet it and are upset that I would set my view to such a great place while never once telling you that you must satisfy my view.

How could I hope to MAKE you do these things? I can not. I can only keep the measure, tow the line, and keep the light strong.

I think it's interesting that the Principle of Self-Defense is placed where really the ideal should be the Defense of Others. They didn't master combat to protect themselves, but the innocent and defenseless. Self-Defense isn't wrong, i just feel that the Jedi didn't learn lightsaber combat to protect themselves but others.

Metsu Desal wrote:

Any historical figures you see as being Jedi without being "jedi"?

There is, of course, always the Master Joshua as an example. Very much a Consular.

As for an earlier subtopic about whether martial training is necessary for a Jedi... I've never believed that Guardian training is 100% necessary in a Jedi's regimen. The only reasons for it are:

1) a Jedi just really likes martial arts training (then knock yourself out!)
2) they have marginal Force ability (which happens; the aspiration is what matters), or
3) they have not yet unfolded their potential far enough.

There are plenty of other avenues with less risk of injury, if a Jedi is merely seeking to be physically fit.

Any Jedi who becomes sufficiently advanced in the Force has no need of martial training. "If the Force be for us, who can be against us?"

Additionally, lightsabers and such are for the movies. Even if a lightsaber were actually invented in the real world, you would end up doing more harm than good with one, because it only has two settings: off, and destroy. Not very Jedi-like.

Fraternally in the Force,
-David

UraharaKiskue wrote: To paraphrase what one of the greatest Jedi of all time once said to me "Then we're in a situation where someone is bleeding, can someone bandage this wound? Oh wait that isn't my area of Jedi Expertise. That is an Epic Fail! This man is thrashing about, help me restrain him!! Sorry that isn't my area of Jedi Expertise. Again an Epic Fail. When someone can not do these most basic tasks because they are so focused in other areas they are a disgrace to the name."

Which makes me think about Stephen Hawkings again, not much he could do in those situations, if he were a Jedi.

Each person has their own struggles and limitations, and strengths, and it seems quite un-Jedi to judge others against your own standards of excellence. Other people might indeed excel at things which they think are important which lie at the periphery of what you consider the 'Jedi Arts'. Specialisation is the foundation of progress and to deny its place with in the Jedi community would probably see it end within a few generations cold.

The structure of TOTJO to me seems to be about delving deeper into the Force and being the inner Jedi as the foundation for becoming the outer Jedi, rather then acting like a Jedi and trying to talk like a Jedi for hope it will make you a Jedi. All that external application has to be more of personal journey in my opinion, because of cultural, technological and physical limitations experienced for those types of activities/training.

I personally have a big place for martial arts and physicality and this does not not conflict with TOTJO in the slightest (its actually been promoted during my training here).

dk42one wrote:

I think it's interesting that the Principle of Self-Defense is placed where really the ideal should be the Defense of Others. They didn't master combat to protect themselves, but the innocent and defenseless. Self-Defense isn't wrong, i just feel that the Jedi didn't learn lightsaber combat to protect themselves but others.

According to the principle of intervention, if an assailant wants to go back to attacking the helpless person, they must first defeat you. Thus, when you intervene physically in defense of someone else, you will usually find a sudden need for self-defense. Voila.

Even then, it is worth noting that those who would attack others are often cowardly bullies, and even just the show of strength it takes to stand up to them with a serious, unafraid look in your eye, will often cause them to rethink or retreat, reluctantly conceding dominance to you. They'll wonder what training you might have that they don't know about and aren't prepared for, or what friends or weapons you have. They want to do the hurting, not be hurt. Which is a major reason why the will to defend others is just as important for a Jedi (or more so!) as the ability to follow through with violence.

Fraternally in the Force,
-David

This may belong in another thread, but I also think it has bearing on our conversation.

Question: Does this order require the 5 trials before Jedi Knighthood?

Trial of Skill
Trial of Courage
Trial of Flesh
Trial of Spirit
Trial of Insight

Those would be five good principles to think about what it means to be a Jedi. Even before Knighthood, one must have at least an inkling of each.