Do we hide behind our titles? Thoughts?

Just for clarification :

I didn't say that all human beings are Jedi. Only that any human being could be. The conditional denotes the possibility - a rare and unique (personal) possibility - that may not be realised. Like Ethan was pointing out, a Jedi peson is one that can recognise one's own statistically improbable existence and come to marvel at it and also realise that is the case of every living in ever expanding circles from that 'self' centre (not to be confused with 'self-centredness' here) and acknowledging the 'self' centre to everyone else's experience as a living thing in a dynamic world also. Everyone has that possibility just by existing at all. I've read somewhere that the probability of any of us actually existing have been calculated at 400 000 000 000 000 : 1 (for as little as we can actually rely on numbers to be credible abstractions of events), and it is that inference which makes even nihilism a pathway to genuine altruism.

But here's the thing that smacks directly upon the topic at hand : "identifying" with the attribute/quality/characteristic/&c. Certainly, as social beings, we have a need for "appartenance" (belonging - third level of Maslow's pyramid), but to make one, marginally chosen, aspect of our life experience "identifying" is what Sartre called "mauvaise foi" (bad faith). Either the "pride" about being "Jedi" or the "shame" of having a low social status are the feelings behind the thoughts we have about the categories we put ourselves into - or allow ourselves to be put into - translated into feelings about our place in the food chain (metaphor in this instance).

This is what makes "Identity" a very curious and very interesting idea to ponder. Forget what it says on your ID card or any other "official" document about 'what' you are .... Take some quiet time to get away from other people and contemplate the 'who' you actually are right now in this moment beyond any- or everything that could be written on a piece of paper -- including the word "Jedi".

My thoughts partly are this - Are we to be just more of the same religious crap as many run from when they join here thinking they are being a part of something different for once?

What do I mean by "the same crap"?

I mean the usual tendency to partition who we are from the rest of the world (like what Christianity does among many others) which inevitably does make us "the chosen special ones who are 'with it' while the rest of them are not" because of some belief that makes us "saved" (righteous) by being "more virtuous" (kind of like the Christian saying they will be the one who will be saved and go to heaven because they accepted christ). This, to me, is the repeated flaw in conventional religious belief.

But people are very insisting on what Alex talks about with identity and belonging, that we can't conceive of that familiar model being threatened.

"I HAVE to be more special in this way by making others not so that I can have meaning and perceived value to this identity of being Jedi. I don't want that meaning and value deflated by granting it to everyone else".

This model of seeing this way, to me, is flawed, in that it is a division where it is delusional and even dangerous to have this division where history has repeatedly gone through violence because of this kind of division. If we are going to not be just more of the same bullshit song and dance, there would need to be a different way of looking at human social identity that is more organic, more inclusive, more understanding, and more equal that takes the larger picture into account about being people and what that ultimately means. But I don't believe (at least yet) that can be possible because it takes a serious paradigm shift for even one person to see why.

I really want to throw this in I am very very grateful for this discussion! I am growing every post I read and I don't believe I could ask for more than that!

In Love and Respect,
Kobos

Proteus wrote: I mean the usual tendency to partition who we are from the rest of the world (like what Christianity does among many others) which inevitably does make us "the chosen special ones who are 'with it' while the rest of them are not" because of some belief that makes us "saved" (righteous) by being "more virtuous" (kind of like the Christian saying they will be the one who will be saved and go to heaven because they accepted christ). This, to me, is the repeated flaw in conventional religious belief.

IF we were to strip Christianity of all literal interpretation (I remember Campbell making the difference between "denotation" and "connotation"), and simply live a life similar to the one lived by Jesus, then I do believe I would still call myself a Catholic. You see, Jesus as a role model has very clear attributes which can be emulated, so calling oneself a "follower of Christ" and behaving according to how he lived is something relatable, easily understandable (though hard to practice, for sure).

The "religious crap" I turn away from is all the literal interpretations of the Bible which are used to justify feeling superior to others or taking right from others. I do not support slavery, I do not support women as submisive to men, I do not support people with wealth being considered unfit for salvation, and I do not even support the idea of eternal torment for a mere 70-90 ish years of misguided deeds. That is the "crap" I turn away from.

I very much see your point Proteus (as yours, Alexandre), and I am not suggesting we start dismissing people or feeling superior. I do not even long for "belonging" to the Jedi community as much as I once did. I just think we should have at least an "idea" of what makes "Jedi" a title to aspire to.

Alexandre Orion wrote: I didn't say that all human beings are Jedi. Only that any human being could be. The conditional denotes the possibility - a rare and unique (personal) possibility - that may not be realised. Like Ethan was pointing out, a Jedi peson is one that can recognise one's own statistically improbable existence and come to marvel at it and also realise that is the case of every living in ever expanding circles from that 'self' centre (not to be confused with 'self-centredness' here) and acknowledging the 'self' centre to everyone else's experience as a living thing in a dynamic world also.

Thank you Alexandre. I do agree that anyone can potentially be Jedi, and I appreciate that you've stated at least some form of description for it. What I do not like is the resistance to define it, when there are some generalities that can be defined and agreed upon by most everyone.

Manu wrote: The "religious crap" I turn away from is all the literal interpretations of the Bible which are used to justify feeling superior to others or taking right from others. I do not support slavery, I do not support women as submisive to men, I do not support people with wealth being considered unfit for salvation, and I do not even support the idea of eternal torment for a mere 70-90 ish years of misguided deeds. That is the "crap" I turn away from.

Well, it doesn't necessarily require those particular kinds of behaviors and literal interpretations for a religious group of people to feel they are superior in some way. That is just the skin-deep level of it all (I don't even understand it to even be the true cause of what I'm referring to). Basically, society as we typically know it has to be able to function in a practically functional way, but this requires (and cultivates) a particular paradigm of seeing the world in order to do so. However, that resulting paradigm, being so ingrained into each of us through many generations seeps its way into our views of things in which it simply does not exist except for our mistaking that it does, or that it ought to. We're so used to this model of "become a part of us and as a result you'll be in the right place for once!" that even within a community that exists because of ideas that contradict that notion, it even still pops up.

"Become a Jedi and you'll be a lot more right than those who are not!"

"Become saved by the word of Christ and you will be redeemed and worthy of heaven!"

"Become enlightened by the teachings of Buddha and you will get to reach Nirvana!"

"Shop at Wal-Mart and save big on low prices!"

It's everywhere, because it's actually a part of people's default way of looking at whatever it is they are a part of, whatever they think they are supposed to be proud of, and whatever they are convinced makes them "better" than the next person. And this exists already here in the notion of being Jedi.

"Meditate on the Doctrine and realize true wisdom and virtue!"

"Become a Knight and prove how honorable you are today!"

It's such a subtle yet automatic nuance in our ways of life that we don't even really notice it. We think we're doing a lot of this by our own will and choice, not realizing a lot of it is actually an ingrained learned reflex of wanting to be "better" (whatever the hell that means). I think that is what there is to unlearn - notions of personal grandeur, glory, greatness, nobility, bla bla bla bla.

My paradigm works like this: I have to completely lose myself (my ego-self) in order to find my ACTUAL self, which means I have to dig up as much of "this is for me" and "this is for me" and "this is for me" (all the things my social conditioning taught me growing up) until there is nothing left and none of it is for me. What IS left is what is for EVERYBODY.............. which includes me, without it being FOR me. This does not mean I have gotten rid of my ego. That is not possible nor healthy. It means I have stopped becoming helplessly trapped inside of it, stopped clinging onto it, and therefore, I'm able to work along side of it. The thing is, the ego is like a whirlpool, like a vacuum. It's always pulling on me, so I have to regularly practice keeping myself from being sucked back into it. But one of the things that tricks one into getting sucked into it, is the "entitlement" scheme which conventional group-think movements tend to utilize to make its members feel superior (without realizing that it is).

Proteus wrote:

Manu wrote: The "religious crap" I turn away from is all the literal interpretations of the Bible which are used to justify feeling superior to others or taking right from others. I do not support slavery, I do not support women as submisive to men, I do not support people with wealth being considered unfit for salvation, and I do not even support the idea of eternal torment for a mere 70-90 ish years of misguided deeds. That is the "crap" I turn away from.

Well, it doesn't necessarily require those particular kinds of behaviors and literal interpretations for a religious group of people to feel they are superior in some way. That is just the skin-deep level of it all (I don't even understand it to even be the true cause of what I'm referring to). Basically, society as we typically know it has to be able to function in a practically functional way, but this requires (and cultivates) a particular paradigm of seeing the world in order to do so. However, that resulting paradigm, being so ingrained into each of us through many generations seeps its way into our views of things in which it simply does not exist except for our mistaking that it does, or that it ought to. We're so used to this model of "become a part of us and as a result you'll be in the right place for once!" that even within a community that exists because of ideas that contradict that notion, it even still pops up.

"Become a Jedi and you'll be a lot more right than those who are not!"

"Become saved by the word of Christ and you will be redeemed and worthy of heaven!"

"Become enlightened by the teachings of Buddha and you will get to reach Nirvana!"

"Shop at Wal-Mart and save big on low prices!"

It's everywhere, because it's actually a part of people's default way of looking at whatever it is they are a part of, whatever they think they are supposed to be proud of, and whatever they are convinced makes them "better" than the next person. And this exists already here in the notion of being Jedi.

"Meditate on the Doctrine and realize true wisdom and virtue!"

"Become a Knight and prove how honorable you are today!"

It's such a subtle yet automatic nuance in our ways of life that we don't even really notice it. We think we're doing a lot of this by our own will and choice, not realizing a lot of it is actually an ingrained learned reflex of wanting to be "better" (whatever the hell that means). I think that is what there is to unlearn - notions of personal grandeur, glory, greatness, nobility, bla bla bla bla.

My paradigm works like this: I have to completely lose myself (my ego-self) in order to find my ACTUAL self, which means I have to dig up as much of "this is for me" and "this is for me" and "this is for me" (all the things my social conditioning taught me growing up) until there is nothing left and none of it is for me. What IS left is what is for EVERYBODY.............. which includes me, without it being FOR me. This does not mean I have gotten rid of my ego. That is not possible nor healthy. It means I have stopped becoming helplessly trapped inside of it, stopped clinging onto it, and therefore, I'm able to work along side of it. The thing is, the ego is like a whirlpool, like a vacuum. It's always pulling on me, so I have to regularly practice keeping myself from being sucked back into it. But one of the things that tricks one into getting sucked into it, is the "entitlement" scheme which conventional group-think movements tend to utilize to make its members feel superior (without realizing that it is).

Valid points, for sure.

And I agree it is more or less unavoidable, what we ca do is notice it in order to not get "caught up" in ourselves.

Being a Jedi still entails some community-shared assumptions about how the world works, and thus still requires some definition.

Knighthood should be defined only in terms of the office it serves (i.e. What does TOTJO need from its knights? That becomes the quality knights are meant to have).

Thank you for the clarification Alex. But, I agree I don't ever want to get to the place where we feel more superior than others or, the mindset were better than others. I often have said I feel better that I found my way here from Christianity but, I certainly haven't felt superior other religions have some very good people amongst them and sincere people who want to do good. However, it doesn't make me chuckle now and then. One thing that does annoy me is when people get high and mighty about their viewpoints. Regardless I try to be respectful of all people's beliefs contrary to my own and be peaceful about it. I have Jevovah witness and Mormon church members praying with me often and of course my wife's church as well when I take her to church. I am not bothered by it is appreciate the thoughtfulNess.

But, I often tell them I am content with my beliefs thank you for praying for me. May the force be with you.

I have been around Boards or Forums for a long time, or to put another way I have been Posting on Roleplay boards and

non- Role play boards for a long time and from almost 15 years of experience I have noticed that a lot of people when

gaining a staff rank like mod or admin of a board, it is like they become a different person, It is like the person will trade their

passion in for glory or they goes all Sith or dark side on a member that is a lower rank than them. or Stealing that

members work then the mod would ban them, and them some years later the board fall because of lack of members or

something else Messenger boards or Forums are like kingdoms they rise and fall

Since TOJO is not a rp board it will be here for a long a while

Thank you, FTPC that brings me some peace, as internet boards and other social media is something I am in fact relatively new too. for example I just started using Skype, FB, Hangouts in March, lol. This site was the exception since my original join date; otherwise it was just strictly emails and LinkedIn for work. lol, Yea technology for you crazy kids........

Thank you everyone again for all of this beautiful conversation. It is for sure something natural to humans to always put any group of people we feel close to as superior to any other group. If you have ever been with a romantic/platonic partner or for an decent amount of time, you will notice you feel as if you're relationship is superior to others relationships though they may be founded under different principles. So, with that logic it is very very easy to place our selves on a high horse. Particularly because, indeed as we all grow some of us will see it as making ourselves a better person, or to serve more ect. So, Proteus, a fantastic way to put it, it is to serve for everybody.
One thing to be asked though is so here is it important to occasionally explain to others why we are choosing to serve the way we are? Not in an attempt to convert; but to be better at communicating and trying to spread that willingness to serve and the awareness that society humans, animals, the world needs service constantly? And if so how do we to this with humility and understanding that it is not how we serve that matters but how can we help others find their way too?

Much Love and Respect,
Kobos

Kobos wrote: Thank you, FTPC that brings me some peace, as internet boards and other social media is something I am in fact relatively new too. for example I just started using Skype, FB, Hangouts in March, lol. This site was the exception since my original join date; otherwise it was just strictly emails and LinkedIn for work. lol, Yea technology for you crazy kids........

Thank you everyone again for all of this beautiful conversation. It is for sure something natural to humans to always put any group of people we feel close to as superior to any other group. If you have ever been with a romantic/platonic partner or for an decent amount of time, you will notice you feel as if you're relationship is superior to others relationships though they may be founded under different principles. So, with that logic it is very very easy to place our selves on a high horse. Particularly because, indeed as we all grow some of us will see it as making ourselves a better person, or to serve more ect. So, Proteus, a fantastic way to put it, it is to serve for everybody.
One thing to be asked though is so here is it important to occasionally explain to others why we are choosing to serve the way we are? Not in an attempt to convert; but to be better at communicating and trying to spread that willingness to serve and the awareness that society humans, animals, the world needs service constantly? And if so how do we to this with humility and understanding that it is not how we serve that matters but how can we help others find their way too?

Much Love and Respect,
Kobos

I Am glad that I could share my side of the boarding world, and secondly I forgot to add I had a lot of doors shut in my face on boards So to speak because my writing skills were weak and I did not discover the writing program "Grammarly" until my second year on this board and if I am not working on my Journal on here. My posts go ignored /un thank on here, But I am not worried about it