Do we hide behind our titles? Thoughts?

Amyntas wrote:

Lykeios wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: I say personally there can not be a more or less of a Jedi . There can only be YOUR path of Jedi ism , which is yours and never in competition with mine. Never. There is no contest ever. In that light there has to be difrent interpitations. Not who's got what code or how much more ... Right !?
Pm me if u like for more if u like !

This, frankly, is why I left Jediism. There is no ruling on what makes someone a Jedi or makes them not a Jedi. It's this wishy-washy bologna that drove me away.

If that is what drove you away i really worry about you , maybe its a good idea to set your own boundaries and find your own line in the sand , do you want to be a Jedi ? Then only the Force can stop you. Do you not wish to be a Jedi ? Then no Force can make you one. In the short period i have spend in the community i have seen a lot of things that might scare one away from the path , but giving people the space to figure out what Jedissm means to them is not one of those things that should make you leave....

What I should have said was it is ONE of the reasons I no longer identify as Jedi.

My point, really, is that there seems to be an attitude around here (and in the Jedi community at large) that just claiming to be a Jedi makes you one. That, to me, is hogwash and waters down the meaning of the word Jedi to the point that it is completely and utterly meaningless. Even Christianity expects its followers to live out their beliefs. A Christian who doesn't actually believe Christian doctrine and does not live in accordance with the doctrine is not a Christian, no how matter how much he claims to be. I am a Hellenic Polytheist but I wouldn't be if I didn't live by my beliefs and practice what I "preach."

As far as I can tell, Jediism is orthopraxic (or at least it was in the movies...which maybe doesn't matter really). It is what you practice that makes you a Jedi, as opposed to orthodoxy where just believing is enough.

Note: I am not questioning anyone's Jedihood here, I'm just pointing out that calling yourself something doesn't make you that thing. I could call myself a dragon or a unicorn, that doesn't make me a dragon or a unicorn.

Lykeios wrote:

Amyntas wrote:

Lykeios wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: I say personally there can not be a more or less of a Jedi . There can only be YOUR path of Jedi ism , which is yours and never in competition with mine. Never. There is no contest ever. In that light there has to be difrent interpitations. Not who's got what code or how much more ... Right !?
Pm me if u like for more if u like !

This, frankly, is why I left Jediism. There is no ruling on what makes someone a Jedi or makes them not a Jedi. It's this wishy-washy bologna that drove me away.

If that is what drove you away i really worry about you , maybe its a good idea to set your own boundaries and find your own line in the sand , do you want to be a Jedi ? Then only the Force can stop you. Do you not wish to be a Jedi ? Then no Force can make you one. In the short period i have spend in the community i have seen a lot of things that might scare one away from the path , but giving people the space to figure out what Jedissm means to them is not one of those things that should make you leave....

What I should have said was it is ONE of the reasons I no longer identify as Jedi.

My point, really, is that there seems to be an attitude around here (and in the Jedi community at large) that just claiming to be a Jedi makes you one. That, to me, is hogwash and waters down the meaning of the word Jedi to the point that it is completely and utterly meaningless. Even Christianity expects its followers to live out their beliefs. A Christian who doesn't actually believe Christian doctrine and does not live in accordance with the doctrine is not a Christian, no how matter how much he claims to be. I am a Hellenic Polytheist but I wouldn't be if I didn't live by my beliefs and practice what I "preach."

As far as I can tell, Jediism is orthopraxic (or at least it was in the movies...which maybe doesn't matter really). It is what you practice that makes you a Jedi, as opposed to orthodoxy where just believing is enough.

Note: I am not questioning anyone's Jedihood here, I'm just pointing out that calling yourself something doesn't make you that thing. I could call myself a dragon or a unicorn, that doesn't make me a dragon or a unicorn.

I definitely understand where you are coming from. Unless we get someone to voluntarily travel the world to audit us on our Jediness it's going to have to be partially taken on faith. There isn't a way to hold everyone 100% accountable. Even if we could do that, I wouldn't agree with it. It's a little Orwellian.

This is one of the reasons why I don't consider Jedi to be a title, but an attribute, one that can only be held personally, not technically. We'd all love to have the technical aspect exist so that we could grasp our familiar practical notions about it all and further the assumed point of a Jedi temple, but I've long realized, it can't be that way (at least not for me). Even a Jedi Knight is more of a natural attribute than a title at the end of the day, as what is taken up in knighthood can only be demonstrated upon having the attribute to play it out. Anything beyond that would not exactly qualify.

Take the X-Men. "Mutant" wasn't a title. And to know one was a mutant was to see their natural abilities to show them to be as such.

In this way, if one is "hiding behind a title" it wouldn't be the title of being a Jedi. It would be them hiding behind their ego (a quite natural thing to do for all people in one way or another). So I wouldn't demonize those who do. Jedi are perfectly susceptible to hiding behind their ego from time to time as there is no amount of Jedi training that can (or should) eliminate it.

As I've always said, to be Jedi is to be human, nothing more, nothing less. A human on a journey, learning and evolving day to day in their life's path. I would rather not romanticize it beyond that.

So, you called Jedi a personal attribute?

How so?

What is the attribute exactly?

at·trib·ute
verb
əˈtriˌbyo͞ot/Submit
1.
regard something as being caused by (someone or something).
"he attributed the firm's success to the efforts of the managing director"
synonyms: ascribe to, assign to, accredit to, credit to, impute to; More
noun
ˈatrəˌbyo͞ot/Submit
1.
a quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something.
"flexibility and mobility are the key attributes of our army"
synonyms: quality, characteristic, trait, feature, element, aspect, property, sign, hallmark, mark, distinction; informalX factor
"he has all the attributes of a top player"
2.
COMPUTING
a piece of information that determines the properties of a field or tag in a database or a string of characters in a display.

Connecting it to mutants seems odd, as yes, they each had a mutation, but, that doesnt fit the case with being a Jedi, and I am not sure how you are trying to make that connection.

If its a personal attribute, why does it get put under the title "Jedi" at all?

Mutants had a mutation. A shared attribute which was the "X" gene which gave a specific mutation.

Also a Jedi is just a human on a journey?

Well, every human is on a journey.

So, why isnt everyone a Jedi?

Or are they?

Then it comes back to being so vague as to have no meaning at all.

As literally everyone, and anyone can make the claim Jedi.

Khaos wrote: So, you called Jedi a personal attribute?

How so?

What is the attribute exactly?

at·trib·ute
verb
əˈtriˌbyo͞ot/Submit
1.
regard something as being caused by (someone or something).
"he attributed the firm's success to the efforts of the managing director"
synonyms: ascribe to, assign to, accredit to, credit to, impute to; More
noun
ˈatrəˌbyo͞ot/Submit
1.
a quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something.
"flexibility and mobility are the key attributes of our army"
synonyms: quality, characteristic, trait, feature, element, aspect, property, sign, hallmark, mark, distinction; informalX factor
"he has all the attributes of a top player"
2.
COMPUTING
a piece of information that determines the properties of a field or tag in a database or a string of characters in a display.

Connecting it to mutants seems odd, as yes, they each had a mutation, but, that doesnt fit the case with being a Jedi, and I am not sure how you are trying to make that connection.

If its a personal attribute, why does it get put under the title "Jedi" at all?

Mutants had a mutation. A shared attribute which was the "X" gene which gave a specific mutation.

Also a Jedi is just a human on a journey?

Well, every human is on a journey.

So, why isnt everyone a Jedi?

Or are they?

Then it comes back to being so vague as to have no meaning at all.

As literally everyone, and anyone can make the claim Jedi.

By George, I think he's got it.

And so again, I know that doesn't jive with this conventional notion that most people want to have about being a Jedi. It seems to take away a lot of the perceived "magic" about it, doesn't it? And quite understandably because in our usual way of seeing things, there is nothing there to really compensate or make up for that. In the conventional paradigm of things, if a Jedi isn't a special portion apart from the rest of the crowd, there seems to be no reason to use the term. But the thing is, I don't subscribe so much to the conventional paradigm of seeing things. Others do and they absolutely can, at least until they've passed a point in their life when it just no longer fits (my case). In my paradigm, there IS a so called "magic" to being, what most people call "just human". It's not a mundane thing. The essence of conscious experience IS a magical thing to me - being on a life's journey IS a very special thing to me. It's not mundane or run-of-the-mill. It's actually quite sacred really. In my paradigm, sentience is an extraordinary phenomenon whereby the universe itself is experiencing itself through each single human entity. There is a pretty unfathomable amount of things to consider when you really think about that, all of which entails everything the doctrine talks about AND more. So, if that makes any sense, then I'm glad, but I don't expect it to for most people, much less everyone else. It is my way of seeing the whole game. I don't expect anyone else to see it that way, so I don't intend on telling anyone else their view is wrong just because it is different from my own. Their view IS part of the whole game that I see anyway.

Proteus wrote: As I've always said, to be Jedi is to be human, nothing more, nothing less.

There are many humans who are murderers, sexual offenders, predators.

Do they fit your description for Jedi?

I can understand the usefulness of equating Jedi to human in order to inoculate against feelings of elitism and intellectual snobery. But leave it at that, and my above example does fit the Jedi title... And thus it is all pointless.

Society has evolved to make it easier for people to behave with empathy and integrity, as most of us on this forum will never be faced with a situation that pitches our survival against our principles. In such a secure environment, being "Jedi" or being "human", as you say, is too easy, even automatic.

So, why the Jedi title at all?

Why do we learn and study? That's free to do in a field or behind bars in a church or under a bridge. So is knowing yourself and finding yourself. So is thinking .Do you think jedi ism frees every one it comes in contact with? Hmm. It's simple a tool some have some some yield some hate some wield... Some don't even know about .
My encouragement :Focus on what it is and can be to you . If your worried about what is is to me.... Your focus isn't you ... It's me. Guess what I can do? Now I won't tell you . And I got your focus . Not the idea friends. What is it to you ! How do u use your labels? Is what's in you .... Keeping u or helping you ? You and your .... Personal. I feel like an ass to tell some one because your this you can't know or you have no right .... Sounds a lot like the religious paths I've left behind. Don't let labels take your focus or even attention . Seek and you WILL find !

Manu wrote: There are many humans who are murderers, sexual offenders, predators.

Do they fit your description for Jedi?

If you mean Jedi as in "someone who would never harm a flea and always help old ladies across the road", then probably not.

Was Darth Vader a Jedi in the end? For those who would say yes, why?

Manu wrote: I can understand the usefulness of equating Jedi to human in order to inoculate against feelings of elitism and intellectual snobery. But leave it at that, and my above example does fit the Jedi title... And thus it is all pointless.

In my view, the term Jedi is an alternate description of being human, one which brings all of the things Joseph Campbell mentions into the idea. If one says "I'm a human being" then that may merely mean the typical physical and even typical mental aspects that we see at face value when thinking of a human being. To say one is a Jedi, is to say "they are a human being, which means [insert the hero's journey here] for them". The Jedi movement to me, is evolving (no, not devolving, EVOLVING) into (as I've said in the past), an ode to what it means spiritually, personally, and cognitively to be human, which does include all of the trials and tribulations that humans go through, especially ones who have killed and harmed. If we say there are no sides to the Force, then why should there HAVE to be sides to being Jedi?

Manu wrote: Society has evolved to make it easier for people to behave with empathy and integrity, as most of us on this forum will never be faced with a situation that pitches our survival against our principles. In such a secure environment, being "Jedi" or being "human", as you say, is too easy, even automatic.

Life is anything but secure, especially in the situation that one has lots of "security".

Manu wrote: So, why the Jedi title at all?

Because it means a great deal more in what it means than simply what we think when we call one a human.

I'm not so sure that "many" people are murderers or sexual offenders ... All human beings, vegan or not, are predators. We just don't notice it so much when we get our food from the supermarket, but lots of other living beings had to die for us to have it. So, prédation - check, we're it. Part of being Jedi (which I too consider more of an adjective than an noun) is some recognition of our place in the food chain as part of "(human)-beingness". Humans aren't the only predators in nature, nor are we not prey just because very few of us get eaten by other animals these days. There are still animals that indeed would eat us and as a matter of fact sometimes get to do.

Every human being is doted with the potential to recognise that fascination with just existence. It is truly what sets our species apart from most - but possibly not all - other species of life on the planet. In this way, it is possible, however unlikely, that every human being could come to an awareness of this vital experience of being alive (intended semantic redundancy), symbolised by the heroic cycle and glimpsing from time to time (it can't be a memory) participation in the myth. Thus, everyone could be Jedi.

And to go back to "not many of us", albeit I find relativism extended too far philosophically paralysing, it may be useful for one evident (to me) observation. That is : there are something like 7,5 billion of us homo sapiens in this world. How many of us actually do turn out to be murderers and sexual offenders ? I'm sure that if they were all in one place, that might be a pretty scary place to be -- but they aren't. To be honest, what I find even more frightening is the notion that as 'civilised' human beings (sic), we can go through life with a bunch of convictions about morality without considering what it is. Even worse, how many of us 'civilised' folk are not murderers or sexual offenders merely because we don't want to suffer the judicial and/or social consequences ? Perhaps that has something to do with what we refer to as Jedi too... That is what your quotation by Jung is implying, Manu : "One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious" We are all potentially killers and rapists ; we all have instincts that run head-long into collision with what is socially acceptable. 'Socially acceptable' changes radically even in groups within cultures ... but then, I'm not an adherent to moral relativism (even more philosophically paralysing).

To say all humans are Jedi I think isn't necessarily true. Agnosticism, Atheism claim to not know or believe in anything I agree with Alex in him saying you cannot say to anyone walking the street "Your a sex offender" or, "Your a Robber" or, "Your a murder" because that simply isn't true and I don't think you could morally say a Jedi is any of those three categories. Not, saying that a person doesn't have the ability to change and move on from what they originally were or did but, it's not practical to say every human is a Jedi they have the potential to be one if chosen but, not everyone.

Secondly, you could argue the fact that I don't have a right to "Identify" myself as something I am not based on how I live. However, working with the public for years people believe you cannot tell them how to "Identify" Themselves. For example, If I tell myself I believe I am a peanut butter and jelly sandwich then I am one, if you tell me that I am not then that is offensive and discrimination and if I really wanted to get you in trouble I could make an outrageous claim of hate.

Now, I know that is ridiculous to say or to claim but, I have heard such claims and their entitled to believe whatever they want regardless what I say. As far as Jediism as whole I think the title of Jedi comes from the fact of THE FORCE. Although, we don't all believe the same as each other does and believe we're all on a different path or journey we all have one thing in common belief that binds us together and that is THE FORCE as has already been said in this post. Now, that could be a whole new subject for us to explore but, When I heard Jedi a few things come to my mind:

1. Star wars: Obvious right?
2. Light Sabers: Yep
3. THE FORCE: BINGO!

Besides the the first, two when I think of the title Jedi it immediately takes me back to THE FORCE it is the first thing forefront of my mind.