Do we hide behind our titles? Thoughts?

I think youre missing the context of my statement, but ok

JLSpinner wrote: Everything has a relationship if we make it that way.

Sure, but the relationship between my farts and the gravitational pull of the full moon over the earths waters is pretty slim by any standard that we have of measuring or noting, whereas the relationship between time and biological deterioration is universal to every living thing of which we are aware.. certain bacteria perhaps being exceptional.

JLSpinner wrote: We still died before we created the concept of time.

Critters drown without having a word for drowning. All kinds of things are killed by forces of which they have no conception every minute of every day, including humans. We created the WORD "time" but the phenomenon existed before we named it. Thats how it usually works. We make the word to describe things that already exist, we make the word so that we can talk about the thing we observe. We observe something and then we label it.
We dont just blabber out some random sound and cause some new thing to appear. We didnt invent time by creating the word, we created the word to talk about the thing.

Time itself doesnt kill, ok, thats technically true.
Given a long enough timeline however, everything dies, including us. So theres clearly a relationship.
In time, your goose will be cooked whether you consider time to be an illusion or not. That's what I was saying.

JLSpinner wrote: The experience isn't illusory. Only our ability to forget and/or pervert it.

Schizophrenic delusions are literally illusory. Yes, there really is an experience going on there, but the experience is that a person is believing an illusory experience to be a real experience. Thats what the words "delusion" and "hallucination" indicate, and thats what i was talking about.The way that an experience can be illusory. Having a conversation with a fantasy. Yes, there really is an experience happening, but there is an illusory component to that experience.

And also I was talking about the way that our conclusions about our experiences can be illusory. We can believe that things happened a certain way or that they hold a certain meaning or significance and be wrong. We can over-value and under-value all kinds of experiences; this is typical even.
Experience has always got a genuine potential for illusion. Thats what I was saying.

There are many factors that go into biological deterioration. Things like atmospheric conditions for example.
Am I missing your context, perhaps. Are you missing carlos' context?
When he says time is an illusion is he talking about years or eons? Or is he talking about man's obsessive hurry and undying focus on the ticking minutes and hours?

Once again, even with schizophrenia, the experience is what happens. What is happening. If that persons mind is adding or subtracting that is relevant to their senses only.

The context of what Carlos said isn't relevant to the extremes of your arguments. It's simply saying that our focus on the labeling of minutes is stealing your chance to experience. It's stealing your opportunity to live. Don't fret on the labels. Focus on living and doing. On seeing and feeling. On being.

If I am not mistaken the first sentence Carlos wrote was not his own, but a quote of what Streen said.

Ob1, members like you keep us rooted on the ground when our head starts to wander too much into the clouds. Thank you.

Apologies. I should credit streen.

Do we hide behind our titles?

Some do.
Some do not.
For some, their title/s are inspirational and set a level to strive to achieve to.
For some, their titles are that which they use to manipulate others.
Some covet and or collect them like trading cards.

Some see titles and are inspired.
Some see titles and are repulsed.

Some tiles inspire and some repulse!:blink: :laugh:

Some people are passive in their approach to life and that is associated in one manner with their title. And some the other.

Some people get butt hurt over titles and some people like butt hurting people with titles. Hmm… that sounds bad…:blink:
But, I said but again LOL :laugh: , are these the questions that actually matter?

Or should we ask instead, how do I see titles?
How do they affect me?
Or how do they influence me?
How do my actions or inactions influence people’s perception of the title/s I hold?
Why should it matter to others?

There are good teachers and there are bad ones. Good cops and bad cops. And so on and so on. Titles do not carry with them the weight that people have to like or agree with said title. Titles are just something that gives a brief and often times completely incomplete description about something to someone else.

Wow, lots to discuss, but I'll start with this...

OB1Shinobi wrote: Which is all well and good if you're a monk meditating in an isolated temple living off of what you grow and what the villagers give you for charity.

:lol: OB1, you think Zen is only in the mountains? My friend, Zen is everything. Some might say it is also nothing, but that's beside the point. Understanding Zen is not an illusive esoteric process. You can experience it whether you're in a temple in the mountains, or in a New York city apartment; meditating or mopping the floor; practicing martial arts or driving your car. Anything can be a Zen practice.

Even reading a map

Apologies. I should credit streen.

No need to credit me. I didn't originate the idea of time being an illusion. I don't remember where I got it from, honestly. But time, to me, seems subjective. Yes you can measure it with a clock. But doesn't time seem to go slower when you stare at one? :silly:

Streen wrote: Time, to me, seems subjective. Yes you can measure it with a clock. But doesn't time seem to go slower when you stare at one? :silly:

Are you taking about time, or your perception of time? Two different things.

I know in physics time behaves in an odd fashion, with relativity and quantum mechanics and all that. But for the here and now - working, practical knowledge - we all have the same 86400 seconds a day to work with.

I think we've branched out into a tangent. Will we get back on topic? Only time will tell. :silly:

JLSpinner wrote: There are many factors that go into biological deterioration. Things like atmospheric conditions for example.

Youre arguing this because... because you want to argue. It looks to me like even you dont know what youre arguing, or possibly even why, but you decided to jump into something and now youre going full tilt regardless of how absurd your position is.

JLSpinner wrote: Am I missing your context, perhaps. Are you missing carlos' context?

Ah and here is the ACTUAL issue: you werent making a real point or position of your own, you were merely trying to stick up for poor, helpless Carlos. Helpless Carlos, who has survived war, saved people from death (and not been able to save some, id have to assume), been shot and stabbed, and who has methodically re-structured his entire personality and world view to claim his own life on his own terms, all on his own initiative. And youre going to build a bunker that you dont need, on a random hill that doesnt do you any damn good, just to protect him from a quote on the internet: a quote that you dont even understand!

JLSpinner wrote: Am I missing your context, perhaps. Are you missing carlos' context?

The difference between you missing my context and me missing Carlos's context is that I thanked Carlos, I was agreeing with Carlos, I appreciated what Carlos said, and was adding my own thoughts to the discussion. Whereas you seemed to be trying to correct me.... about my own ideas. Remember this young Jedi: you cannot correct someone if you do not understand what they are saying. Understand what people are expressing and how it fits into the overall discussion and then decide if its worth arguing about.

JLSpinner wrote: When he says time is an illusion is he talking about years or eons? Or is he talking about man's obsessive hurry and undying focus on the ticking minutes and hours?

Here is what Carlos said.


First of all, if you want to assume a universe of meaning that wasnt specifically stated in the comment then go right ahead. You could even be correct, but its poor reading and sloppy thinking to do so. But FYI, this is the part of Carlos's comment that i was responding to...

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: ....My personal Jedi ism can't agree that time is an illusion.

As you can see, Carlos was not saying that time is an illusion, he was saying the opposite: that (in his experience) time is NOT an illusion. So you didnt understand anyone's context in this conversation.

Which is pretty funny because I was talking about how we shouldnt necessarily be so confident that we really understand the full nature of our experiences when you oh-so-helpfully jump in to give us all a living example of what that looks like. Maybe that was the Force at work.

JLSpinner wrote: Once again, even with schizophrenia, the experience is what happens. What is happening. If that persons mind is adding or subtracting that is relevant to their senses only.

I have no idea what your experience/s with schizophrenia are, maybe youve seen a movie about someone who had it or maybe youve dealt with it directly in some capacity or other for years and years, i dont want to assume. But i have my own experiences to draw on: Ive read about it several times as part of my degree, had it explained to me by professors who also are clinical practitioners, and ive seen and talked with schizophrenic/schizo-affective individuals (plural) while they were experiencing delusions. Ive been in the situation of being the only one there to help people make sense of reality while they were in the process of hearing and seeing things that werent real (not that i was able to make any major difference).

All i can do is repeat what ive already said: there really is an experience happening during a schizophrenic delusion, but delusion/illusion is THE defining element of that experience. If you want to argue against that again then fine, but i wont spend any more time explaining something that is understood and obvious to everyone.

JLSpinner wrote: The context of what Carlos said isn't relevant to the extremes of your arguments. It's simply saying that our focus on the labeling of minutes is stealing your chance to experience. It's stealing your opportunity to live. Don't fret on the labels. Focus on living and doing. On seeing and feeling. On being.

Carlos has been posting his thoughts for a long time and of course you and he have a history of personal discussions which give you a contextual insight beyond whats been written in this thread. But Carlos didnt say all of that in his previous comment. In fact, i dont think he said ANY of that in his previous comment. I think you made it allup. I think there is an illusory component to the experience you have been having in this topic which proves my point better than any argument i could make.

I dont. Having no titles to hide behind (or to defend) i have only the positions that i take in the various discussions, and the influence i endeavor (not always successfully) to be. I do my best to choose my positions carefully, and to read what others say carefully.
You have several titles: "Deacon" and "Adviser" in particular being rather impressive and important sounding.
Those are titles that (I would assume) imply a pretty important obligation to live up to a MUCH higher standard than most. I expect a Deacon and an Adviser to be especially careful about reading and understanding what others are saying before he comments. Far from allowing you to hide behind your titles, i will expect you to live up to them. Which makes me one of the truest (though least favorite) friends you have around here, depending on what "friendship" means to you.

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I equated what Streen said to Carlos. I understand what you're saying Obi. Full well do I understand.

My titles do not give me any more importance than you or anyone else. If I have made you feel this way, I apologize. That was not my intent. These titles don't mean anything other than the responsibilities I have to all of you here. They mean I am at your bidding.

Since I botched this conversation I will back out. I thought it was Carlos but it wasn't. That is my fault. Please continue.

JLSpinner wrote: My titles do not give me any more importance than you or anyone else. If I have made you feel this way, I apologize. That was not my intent. These titles don't mean anything other than the responsibilities I have to all of you here. They mean I am at your bidding.

I agree that the ranks and titles here do not make one more or less important than any other member, and rather, as you state JL, are set out for the purpose of indicating responsibility and service rather than serving a purpose of self-aggrandizement.

However, it is important to note that even if you do not hide behind your titles, others will try to hold you up to them. The responsibility of the title is also a liability, as it does give more force to what you say, and how what you say is tied into what TotJO deems official. It ain't fair, but it happens.