The value of "time in the community"

Brenna wrote:

Mindas Arran wrote: I'm curious, are there any actual examples of somone justifying their behavior with tenure? How was it handled then? I've been reading through the odd post here and there, but I am yet to see anyone using their "time served" in such a way.

Yes, there are. Thankfully this isnt actually something that Ive seen in a while. I can think of maybe one or two in the last few months but on the whole very little in the last year. I don't think its fair to call people out publicly on it unless asked for feedback but it has happened in the past. There are certainly examples if you want to spend time digging through long dormant posts.

Yea, I guess Im guilty of calling people out on it... :blush:

Not too cool, I guess, lol...

Its like I wrote long ago about "Duty"...

Am I calling them out, to belittle them, and make them defensive, or am I "using a ball bat"?

Khaos, I think, one time, pointed out that I was treating him, as I was accusing him of treating others... And he was right... Well, Khaos can handle 'rougher' conversation, as can I, but, then in the 'open forums' others want to get involved, and then get upset with the rougher talk... The further one gets on the path here at totjo, the higher levels do open up, but, by then, we all talk so respectfully, and know each other so well, the 'heated' topics are relatively calm...

But, conversation, and especially on certain topics, and with certain people, is NOT a "one size fits all" things...

If you want your audience to listen, you have to communicate so they are listening.... Otherwise, while speak? :lol:...

And, something I wanted to talk about earlier, someone said, "youd think with so much time in the community, they would learn to talk to people", I think this as well sometimes... Again, if they truly A) cared about their message getting through, or cared about the person.... Either way..

"Time in" exists at TotJO, I just daresay its a quieter, more subtle, but equally potent methodology of it.

It does, lol...

As you said:

Any way you slice it, there will be some kind of separation built within any given system.

But, we try to squish it when we can...

OH, and:

I see no value in taking an oath I do not believe in for a path I do not follow.

I would find that insulting to this site, but also to myself.

The Oath is no longer required for membership....

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/114-Announcements/114275-announcement-simple-oath

Jestor, Sometimes people need calling out. We all need it from time to time.

But i think its unnecessary to call someone out on something thats happened months, even years back. Its generally not currently relevant to that person or where they are at. And as an example in the current discussion, I think the fact that it has happened in useful to the topic, making the effort to go and dig up exactly who and where just seems... I dunno. not right somehow.

yeah i actually started to dig one up and as i did it i felt the same -- not right or necessary

Which is why when I started this thread I promised myself that I wouldn't do that. It may seem like this thread was all about that very thing, but I wanted to address the concept, not the people.

Ah well crap, aint you all making me look like an ass, lol...

Good thing I picked a non-inflammatory one, lol...

My 'desire to answer', got ahead of my 'good sense', lol...

Goken wrote:

Alethea Thompson wrote:

tzb wrote: What exactly is the problem with picking up trash by the side of the road as an exercise?

I suggest the Jedi who is sniffy about that kind of lesson is the one most in need of it.

Picking up trash on the side of the road is fine and dandy, it's not what the older community saw as a Jedi duty. With the introduction of "Duty to All" which pursues any sort of service to improve the world around you, this fits. But the older community focused on helping humans, engaging people to improve THEIR lives- not engaging the environment to improve (for lack of a better way to convey such) Gaia's life.

With an understanding that, through the Force, everyone and everyTHING is connected I believe that helping the environment is also aiding the lives of humans. Since they live in the environment and all that.

That's one way to look at it. Like I said, that's not how it -was-.

As for the picking up trash on the side of the road- it's a community, but it has nothing to do with connecting with people. It's about finding cheap labor to do a job, as well as the fact that the inmates get more time outside. When I was working as a guard at a detainee facility, my detainees HATED being cooped up in the cells and even in the General Population open room. They much preferred having the sun on them. It was a constant request "Mr. Mr., Shams?". They even enjoyed doing the cleanup because it meant they were outside.

Jestor wrote: Ah well crap, aint you all making me look like an ass, lol...

Good thing I picked a non-inflammatory one, lol...

My 'desire to answer', got ahead of my 'good sense', lol...

hahaha. nope, not at all. Sometimes people need specific examples. Helps them understand what youre talking about. Sometimes its not necessarily and simply fuels confrontation

Goken wrote: For many this is going to be a touchy subject, so I would like to remind everyone to keep it civil. My goal is to have zero naming, calling out, finger pointing, and blaming done. I want to have a calm, honest, open discussion about what value a person's "time in the community" really has. I thought about putting this in the members only forum but I decided to place it here because there are some whom this might directly relate to that might not be able to access it there. If a moderator feels that that would be a better place for it later on it can be moved.

Bringing up a person's "time the community" is interesting to me. It usually seems to happen only when two criteria are met, rarely is it just one of them. 1) That person is relatively unknown within TOTJO and 2) that person has said something that others have deemed rude and are calling that person out for it. It is frequently when those two criteria are met that someone else says "Well [person x] has been in the Jedi community for [y] years." Sometimes it's person x themselves who say it, but not always.

It is almost never brought up when that person is well known to us here and/or has been particularly awesome. The other day when I congratulated Cabur and MadHatter for a particularly well handled disagreement no one said "Well Cabur/MadHatter has been in the Jedi community for [y] years."

Why is that?

The most obvious answer I can see is that in the first and most common scenario person x has been rude and someone is trying to justify it. Person x has spent a long time in the community, therefore they can be rude. This is usually followed up with "They're a really nice person, they just take some time to get use to" or "they just don't make a good first impression" or my personal favorite "They're nicer in person." That doesn't mean a lot to the people they have hurt. The hurt people are not always new to the Jedi community, but it seems that they frequently are and they don't get a good taste of it when that happens.

Another answer is that in the second example no one needs it pointed out because Cabur and Hatter showed that they are good Jedi through their actions. No qualifier is needed because we saw it. We don't have to question it. Boom. Jedi. Those kinds of interactions cause new people to say "Wow. These Jedi are great, I want to be a part of this community."

I only bring this up because it has happened numerous times in my relatively short time here. (coming up on 2 years :woohoo: ). Yes, there was one incident recently that sparked this for me, but it has happened many times and come from numerous Jedi.

My real question is, why is it okay for a person to have been rude if they've been in the Jedi community for a long time?

Please do not take this to mean that I think poorly of all people who spend time outside of TOTJO. That's not it at all. There are many members here who I know spend time elsewhere whom I get along with wonderfully. They are not the problem. It's the people who expect a pass on rudeness because they are Jedi that I am questioning. I know we don't like telling people how to be good Jedi, but is that really how we want Jedi seen? Is that how these people want Jedi here to see a representative of their home or main Jedi community?

That's not how I want people to see TOTJO. That's not how I want people to see Jedi as a whole. We all say that we don't care what the world at large thinks of us, but it would be nice if they at least didn't think we were all rude. They can think we all wear robes and hoods and carry lightsabers. They can think we all practice telekinesis. I don't care about that. But I would really like them to also think of us as nice people, and excusing rude behavior because of "time in the community" is going to do the exact opposite of that. It tells people "Oh, well people who have been Jedi longer are ruder. Jediism must not be a nice thing then."

In the end what I really want to know is, why should a person's time in the community sway us into excusing rude behavior? What do you expect people to say when that is brought up? What value does all that time have if person x still can't act decent to the members here, new or old?

My feelings are probably evident, but I am open to changing them. Please, treat each other well during this discussion. We are all Jedi, and more importantly, we are all people and we are all worthy of respect based on that fact alone.

Nothing is rude to a Jedi.

ren wrote: Nothing is rude to a Jedi.

I respectfully disagree. Perhaps I don't fit your definition of Jedi but there have been times that I have felt that people have been rude to myself and/or others and I believe myself to be a Jedi.