The value of "time in the community"

What exactly is the problem with picking up trash by the side of the road as an exercise?

I suggest the Jedi who is sniffy about that kind of lesson is the one most in need of it.

Gisteron wrote:

Jestor wrote: We are less "baseball bat" and more "patience and repition"....

Like dealing with children....

Something tells me that's kind of the point. Nobody is arguing in favour of battery, but to treat adults like children is condescending and at times humiliating. Even children feel it when you treat them as such. It rarely helps with anything and serves only to reinforce and protect those - adults as well as Peter Pan - who actually do want to be treated like children which is... well, immature in a rather very literal sense of the word.

Well, like when you and I talked in the 'faith' conversation....

I felt that you were being childish in your stance, and you probably could say the same of me...

When I say "dealing with children", is similar to ELI5...

So, when I started this job I have, the guy training me, said, "I figure you already know how to dump the garbage cans?", I said, "Lets pretend I dont, and explain to me your way of doing things"

The reason I do that, have them explain it to me like Im 5 (ELI5), is that there may be things I dont understand, and, like a child (inexperienced/young adult) I wnat to see whats what, then, when I understand your pattern, I will begin to inject my own...

Its similar to what we were talking about in the other thread, Trisskar (was it this thread? lol) was talking about how things used to be with links and what not... She came in, thinking things were the same, and they were not (obviously, lol) and didnt see if things (terms and conditions/FAQ) had changed, didnt ask any questions, didnt do anything, except assume things had changed...

Now, her and I bumped heads, I had to get all belligerent about it (btw, I did check with council, and confirm that was still the position we wanted, despite me looking like an asshat who does as he likes, I do check myself, lol) and enforce the rules, and make it a 'then v now' stance, which it was, and she defended her actions/expalined why she did it and after the public shouting was done, we talked via PM and patched things up...

But, it all could have been avoided, had she just left it at 'sorry, Ill stop' and then we chatted privately... At least the 'us v them' stuff could have been avoided... I could have expalined to her the 'whys' of the new rules...

Basically, for those who do not know, its simply so that we treat everyone fair... We have changed the policy a bit, and decided that 'fair' was going to have to viewed differently... We tret those we know the same, and those we do not the same, but, not the two the same... lol..

So, when I say children, I merely refer to people as inexperienced, not young... Just like my GrandMaster refered to my students as 'my soldiers', even though they were students, and many of them WERE children, lol... I had to see what he meant, and less what he said... When he said, "you change your mind", he generally meant, "ah, you got it now!"

It is the 'words mean things' and as tzb said to me via PM, "yes, words DO mean things... They mean MANY things", and we need to make sure we are speaking the same, before getting all pissy, lol...

As I said in another recent thread, rules are in place to keep this place civil and family-friendly.
No, of course most people don't change just because some jackass on the internet declares that they have to. That's not something that happens here a lot, so if there is an objection to what does happen, it seems to have to be against the more reasoned and nuanced criticism we actually do find at TOTJO.
It is one thing to refuse a journey any challenge invites to. We couldn't demand everyone to go to every place they are invited but to those who cannot even handle receiving an invitation in the first place I personally have little more to say than "there is your mail box and here is some glue".

To talk more forcefully to me, thats one thing, but to someone fresh on 'the path', well, thats harder... Their skin isnt as thick, and patience and ability to see beyond the screen isnt as good, yet... Inexperienced, like a child...

If I came across someone who couldnt handle how 'rough' I talk to them, I go to PM, if I really care about them understanding me that is, or at least my point, and, if I dont really care if they do, why am I bothering to post to them? My own vanity? to be listened to?

A portion of the understanding does go to the listener, but, if you speak in a manner they are unfamilar with, then they wont get it...

And if PM didnt work, then I would apologize for any ruffled feathers, and cease the conversation... Simple as that...

If someone who is 'rough/hard' is really here to help, anyone but themselves, this wouild be the best way, I think...

If they are here only for themselves, well, "I think youre gonna have a bad time." And, I do think some who post here, are here only for themselves...

http://wengu.tartarie.com/wg/wengu.php?l=Sunzi

Ssu-ma Ch`ien gives the following biography of Sun Tzu:

Sun Tzu Wu was a native of the Ch`i State. His ART OF WAR brought him to the notice of Ho Lu, [2] King of Wu. Ho Lu said to him: "I have carefully perused your 13 chapters. May I submit your theory of managing soldiers to a slight test?"

Sun Tzu replied: "You may."

Ho Lu asked: "May the test be applied to women?"

The answer was again in the affirmative, so arrangements were made to bring 180 ladies out of the Palace. Sun Tzu divided them into two companies, and placed one of the King's favorite concubines at the head of each. He then bade them all take spears in their hands, and addressed them thus: "I presume you know the difference between front and back, right hand and left hand?" [he defined the terms]

The girls replied: Yes.

Sun Tzu went on: "When I say "Eyes front," you must look straight ahead. When I say "Left turn," you must face towards your left hand. When I say "Right turn," you must face towards your right hand. When I say "About turn," you must face right round towards your back." [he gave instruction on what was expected]

Again the girls assented. The words of command having been thus explained, he set up the halberds and battle-axes in order to begin the drill. Then, to the sound of drums, he gave the order "Right turn." But the girls only burst out laughing. Sun Tzu said: "If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, then the general is to blame." [emphasis mine... He assumes blame could be on himself, and trys to rectify the situation]

So he started drilling them again, and this time gave the order "Left turn," whereupon the girls once more burst into fits of laughter. Sun Tzu: "If words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, the general is to blame. But if his orders ARE clear, and the soldiers nevertheless disobey, then it is the fault of their officers." [in this case, we do not have officers, or, we can be seen as the officers as well as the general... and who it is we are expalaining/talking to, as the troops... If I fail to get my message through, I will leave, thus cutting off my own head...]

So saying, he ordered the leaders of the two companies to be beheaded. Now the king of Wu was watching the scene from the top of a raised pavilion; and when he saw that his favorite concubines were about to be executed, he was greatly alarmed and hurriedly sent down the following message: "We are now quite satisfied as to our general's ability to handle troops. If We are bereft of these two concubines, our meat and drink will lose their savor. It is our wish that they shall not be beheaded."

Sun Tzu replied: "Having once received His Majesty's commission to be the general of his forces, there are certain commands of His Majesty which, acting in that capacity, I am unable to accept."

Accordingly, he had the two leaders beheaded, and straightway installed the pair next in order as leaders in their place. When this had been done, the drum was sounded for the drill once more; and the girls went through all the evolutions, turning to the right or to the left, marching ahead or wheeling back, kneeling or standing, with perfect accuracy and precision, not venturing to utter a sound. Then Sun Tzu sent a messenger to the King saying: "Your soldiers, Sire, are now properly drilled and disciplined, and ready for your majesty's inspection. They can be put to any use that their sovereign may desire; bid them go through fire and water, and they will not disobey."

But the King replied: "Let our general cease drilling and return to camp. As for us, We have no wish to come down and inspect the troops."

Thereupon Sun Tzu said: "The King is only fond of words, and cannot translate them into deeds."

After that, Ho Lu saw that Sun Tzu was one who knew how to handle an army, and finally appointed him general. In the west, he defeated the Ch`u State and forced his way into Ying, the capital; to the north he put fear into the States of Ch`i and Chin, and spread his fame abroad amongst the feudal princes. And Sun Tzu shared in the might of the King.

Art of War is a logical book, but, one has to read it with a sideways glance, as his words are, well, old school, and not directly transferable to every day life... But, every exchange is kind of a conflict...

How much of a coincidence is it, by the way, that a thread about patience we have with harsher seniors derailed into a debate on what is acceptable conduct? Somehow I suspect that this same matter is what it was really about all along... was it not?

This thread is about 'patience'?

:lol:...

x57z12 wrote: But a guest, specifically one past the mandatory 7 day wait, CHOSE not to be a member or more. That too, tells something.

what exactly does it tell you?

the desire to play sherlock holmes is natural to all of us because that ability keeps us alive in certain instances, so to say "dont play detective" is just stupid

but you need to learn how to be a good detective, and since i am a Guest and i have reason, i am curious what conclusions youve drawn about the implications of a person choosing to remain in Guest status

im not offended, im only curious

The reality is that some people believe they are "special little snowflakes" and prefer a more tender and compassionate approach.

Others are "hot little drops of napalm" that prefer to make their mark on the world on their terms.

Both are worthy of being Jedi, and both can be of great benefit to this community. Time served means nothing to me. I'll learn what I can from anyone who has something worthy to share. Whether it comes in the form of a gentle nudge or sledgehammer is a matter of how effective the method will convey the lesson to the individual. A good teacher will know their student and adapt the method to get the most effective result. A good student will reflect on the lesson and learn what they can from it. Picking up trash on the side of the road can be a punishment used as negative reinforcement or an act of community service meant to encourage humble responsibility. It's all in the delivery.

For the record, TOTJO is first and foremost a Temple. We call it that for a reason. It is not an academy. It is not an institute. The title alone should indicate that members here will prefer one method of teaching over the other.

In regard to what this Temple has to say about "time in the community", I'll just leave Teaching #3 here.

3. Jedi are aware of the future impacts of action and inaction and of the influence of the past, but live in and focus on the Now. We let ourselves flow like water through the events around us. We embrace the ever changing and fluid world, adapting and changing as it does.

tzb wrote: What exactly is the problem with picking up trash by the side of the road as an exercise?

I suggest the Jedi who is sniffy about that kind of lesson is the one most in need of it.

Picking up trash on the side of the road is fine and dandy, it's not what the older community saw as a Jedi duty. With the introduction of "Duty to All" which pursues any sort of service to improve the world around you, this fits. But the older community focused on helping humans, engaging people to improve THEIR lives- not engaging the environment to improve (for lack of a better way to convey such) Gaia's life.

I would love to see this thread pinned. I learned a lot, about a lot of you and I think it would benefit anyone stopping by.

Alethea Thompson wrote:

tzb wrote: What exactly is the problem with picking up trash by the side of the road as an exercise?

I suggest the Jedi who is sniffy about that kind of lesson is the one most in need of it.

Picking up trash on the side of the road is fine and dandy, it's not what the older community saw as a Jedi duty. With the introduction of "Duty to All" which pursues any sort of service to improve the world around you, this fits. But the older community focused on helping humans, engaging people to improve THEIR lives- not engaging the environment to improve (for lack of a better way to convey such) Gaia's life.

But picking up trash is often meant to engage people and improve THEIR lives. That is why corrections departments use it as an alternative to throwing someone in jail. Improving the environment is just a positive result of the activity, but not necessarily the purpose.

Alethea Thompson wrote:

tzb wrote: What exactly is the problem with picking up trash by the side of the road as an exercise?

I suggest the Jedi who is sniffy about that kind of lesson is the one most in need of it.

Picking up trash on the side of the road is fine and dandy, it's not what the older community saw as a Jedi duty. With the introduction of "Duty to All" which pursues any sort of service to improve the world around you, this fits. But the older community focused on helping humans, engaging people to improve THEIR lives- not engaging the environment to improve (for lack of a better way to convey such) Gaia's life.

With an understanding that, through the Force, everyone and everyTHING is connected I believe that helping the environment is also aiding the lives of humans. Since they live in the environment and all that.




But we're getting off topic again. :laugh: A younger generation weakness of mine I'm afraid. Oh look a squirrel!

Mindas Arran wrote: I'm curious, are there any actual examples of somone justifying their behavior with tenure? How was it handled then? I've been reading through the odd post here and there, but I am yet to see anyone using their "time served" in such a way.

Yes, there are. Thankfully this isnt actually something that Ive seen in a while. I can think of maybe one or two in the last few months but on the whole very little in the last year. I don't think its fair to call people out publicly on it unless asked for feedback but it has happened in the past. There are certainly examples if you want to spend time digging through long dormant posts.

OB1Shinobi wrote:

x57z12 wrote: But a guest, specifically one past the mandatory 7 day wait, CHOSE not to be a member or more. That too, tells something.

what exactly does it tell you?

the desire to play sherlock holmes is natural to all of us because that ability keeps us alive in certain instances, so to say "dont play detective" is just stupid

but you need to learn how to be a good detective, and since i am a Guest and i have reason, i am curious what conclusions youve drawn about the implications of a person choosing to remain in Guest status

im not offended, im only curious

For me its simple, and keep in mind, since were talking of time in, that I have now been a part of TotJO for a little over 5 years now.

I am not a Jedi.

I am a Sith.

Whether or not you agree with that path, or find it valid is irrelevant.

I see no value in taking an oath I do not believe in for a path I do not follow.

I would find that insulting to this site, but also to myself.

The only reason I would want any form of membership anyway is to weigh in on topics I cannot currently post on,nothing more.

Which in regards to TotJO, I find that much more shallow a notion, as it has nothing to do with time in, or even merit of the proof of past to present contributions, but of online status.

I think again it was a matter of people not being able to handle the content of the conversations to some degree. Newer people not being "homogenized" So then if one becomes a member, etc, then to two become one.

Any way you slice it, there will be some kind of separation built within any given system.

Which is why some people feel so unimportant, or what have you.

"Time in" exists at TotJO, I just daresay its a quieter, more subtle, but equally potent methodology of it.

I personally applaud the manipulation myself.