The value of "time in the community"

Khaos said:

I would consider online perhaps the least likely place to learn to listen.

I disagree, if only because of the choice of words. Arguably online is not usually a place where listening is being taught or demonstrated/lived by example if you will, however that hardly means it cannot be learned here. Obviously this requires the independend dedication of the student rather than a thoughtful teacher.
That being said there are lessons in the IP that feel as if they were designed to teach listening. Then again lessons are what we make them/take from them.

x57z12 wrote: Khaos said:

I would consider online perhaps the least likely place to learn to listen.

I disagree, if only because of the choice of words. Arguably online is not usually a place where listening is being taught or demonstrated/lived by example if you will, however that hardly means it cannot be learned here. Obviously this requires the independend dedication of the student rather than a thoughtful teacher.
That being said there are lessons in the IP that feel as if they were designed to teach listening. Then again lessons are what we make them/take from them.

I would argue this, but the you only need surf the net for a while to see the evidence to the contrary. Anywhere from Youtube, Facebook, Forums, etc, I little in percentage of the realization of possible potential you speak of. Which makes any potential worthless if not realized.

If it is not being taught, or demonstrated, how is someone going to learn it?

If we are putting all the responsibility on the student, then thats fine, but then, you cannot really argue about the harness of others.

So then, it comes down to what is considered rude by the listener, to which the person speaking, or what have you, cannot control how ones words will be accepted.

Khaos wrote:

x57z12 wrote: Khaos said:

I would consider online perhaps the least likely place to learn to listen.

I disagree, if only because of the choice of words. Arguably online is not usually a place where listening is being taught or demonstrated/lived by example if you will, however that hardly means it cannot be learned here. Obviously this requires the independend dedication of the student rather than a thoughtful teacher.
That being said there are lessons in the IP that feel as if they were designed to teach listening. Then again lessons are what we make them/take from them.

I would argue this, but the you only need surf the net for a while to see the evidence to the contrary. Anywhere from Youtube, Facebook, Forums, etc, I little in percentage of the realization of possible potential you speak of. Which makes any potential worthless if not realized.

If it is not being taught, or demonstrated, how is someone going to learn it?

If we are putting all the responsibility on the student, then thats fine, but then, you cannot really argue about the harness of others.

So then, it comes down to what is considered rude by the listener, to which the person speaking, or what have you, cannot control how ones words will be accepted.

I am responsible for what comes out of my mouth , but never for how you take it ? That is a very healthy attitude , but somehow in an online community i feel some caution is not a luxury.

MartaLina wrote: I am responsible for what comes out of my mouth , but never for how you take it ? That is a very healthy attitude

That's debatable. I think Jedi should be above dismissing the feelings of others and actually care what the other person is experiencing because of a rough presentation, but this is a discussion we've had before. It's true you can't always control the other person's reaction, sometimes no amount of effort will help, but I don't think we should ever reach a point where we stop caring and trying to help the other person heal from what they saw as injurious.

We do need to learn to care about more than just our own experience though. That's the whole point of the Force... realizing our interconnected nature. Being sensitive to what we are doing to others can only help the state of the entire being.

Snowy Aftermath wrote:

MartaLina wrote: I am responsible for what comes out of my mouth , but never for how you take it ? That is a very healthy attitude

That's debatable. I think Jedi should be above dismissing the feelings of others and actually care what the other person is experiencing because of a rough presentation, but this is a discussion we've had before. It's true you can't always control the other person's reaction, sometimes no amount of effort will help, but I don't think we should ever reach a point where we stop caring and trying to help the other person heal from what they saw as injurious.

We do need to learn to care about more than just our own experience though. That's the whole point of the Force... realizing our interconnected nature. Being sensitive to what we are doing to others can only help the state of the entire being.

Maybe you should not quote half of what i said then , because your aguments are the same as i was adressing , altleast post then the full sentence. In a way it is healthy to be able to say whatever you want and not care how others take it , but as i said , we still need to be cautious , i for one am all for counting to 10 before you post something , but i cannot demand that. Being interconnected also means you can see the broader picture , searching for common ground , trying to understand what the other person is saying even if he expresses himself in poor structured language , when you are a member of a community long enough you tend to know what to say and what not , but it should never lead to not trying to express your opinion in fear of not being liked . So i agree that we should be sensitive to what we are doing to others , and i agree that to a certain extend we can try to call someone out , but the arguments do have to be valid ...

Snowy Aftermath wrote: I think Jedi should be above dismissing the feelings of others and actually care what the other person is experiencing ... It's true you can't always control the other person's reaction, sometimes no amount of effort will help, but I don't think we should ever reach a point where we stop caring ...

yes, i agree with this, although i have definitely learned the habit of simply speaking my mind without a lot of regard for how it is received.
i cant say that every instance of me being critical of someone else has been necessary, definitely i cannot say that ive always handled such instances well, but there are times when it is appropriate to be critical and each situation is different

i guess figuring out how to handle each one for what it is, is part of the learning process

Snowy Aftermath wrote: That's the whole point of the Force... realizing our interconnected nature. Being sensitive to what we are doing to others can only help the state of the entire being.

as can NOT being so sensitive about what we think they are doing to us

if we are interconnected, really, then toughening our own skin to perceived insults of others ALSO "can only help the state of the entire being"

which i dont mean to use as a way of saying "i should be able to talk to you however i want and its your responsibility not to take it personal"

but it IS to say "toughen up!"

which of course is always easy to tell someone else to do lol and not always so easy to do oneself

MartaLina said:

Maybe you should not quote half of what i said then , because your aguments are the same as i was adressing , altleast post then the full sentence.

I wanted to address only the statement of "that's a healthy attitude" and left the first bit of the sentence there so folks could see where I was quoting from. I think I may be reading the rest of the sentence in a different tone than you intended it, and I apologize for omitting it in that case.

I do still disagree that dismissing someone's complaint (ever) it is a healthy attitude. I believe a healthy attitude considers every side and truly makes an effort to help. But this might be a case of agreeing to disagree

Snowy Aftermath wrote:

Maybe you should not quote half of what i said then , because your aguments are the same as i was adressing , altleast post then the full sentence.

I wanted to address only the statement of "that's a healthy attitude" and left the first bit of the sentence there so folks could see where I was quoting from. I think I read the rest of the sentence in a different tone than you intended it, and I apologize for omitting it.

I do still disagree that dismissing someone's complaint (ever) it is a healthy attitude. I believe a healthy attitude considers every side and truly makes an effort to help. But this might be a case of agreeing to disagree

Ow i agree you should not dismiss anyones complaint , lol , but i have seen here a few times that someone tries to say something on a topic and then gets attacked personally and that i dont agree with, so the one who made a point gets attacked but is not responsible for that attack , because the reciever decides he is offended and attacks ..if that makes any sense ? So the sender is responsible for the message but not for the reaction to the message , the attacker is and always will be responsible , and i know that is a hard statement because i have seen people being brought to madness of other peoples words , they are hurt and damaged , and they need to heal ....and ..grow a thicker skin. As Jedi we need a thick skin, like an elephant , but we also need a soft and forgiving heart , but most of all we need to know ourselves , why do i say stuff , what results do i want ...etc

And we are way off topic again haha

OB1Shinobi wrote: as can NOT being so sensitive about what we think they are doing to us

if we are interconnected, really, then toughening our own skin to perceived insults of others ALSO "can only help the state of the entire being"

And I am absolutely not disagreeing with you. I do think that deciding another person should be at that point on their path though, is unreasonable. A brand new poster can't be expected to be at that point already. Someone who has lived through a literal hell before coming to us may have a lot of healing to do before they're ready for that. We all move differently and have different starting points.

which i dont mean to use as a way of saying "i should be able to talk to you however i want and its your responsibility not to take it personal"

but it IS to say "toughen up!"

which of course is always easy to tell someone else to do lol

/nods

I'm only here to suggest that we give each other time to develop the skills that are that Jedi ideal, not to demand it from them straight out of the gate. I agree that we need to toughen up (put down boundaries for the sake of our own emotional health) and soften up (listen and be sensitive) at the same time. Which is an irony I'm not touching right now xD

It's really interesting to me that you created this thread on the same day that I had this discussion with someone. It's like the Force telling me, "Hey, look more closely at this." So, I've been watching the conversation eb and flow.
I've seen some very cogent arguments for the idea that everyone should be considerate of others' feelings when posting, but, as has been stated numerous times already in this thread, how can the "poster " be held responsible for the reaction of the reader? Any post can be taken out of context, misread, or simply ignored. Who, but the reader, has control over their reaction to what they read? Even if the most vile, offensive profanity were posted as a direct attack on someone, they are still free to respond with love and forgiveness. In fact, is a great opportunity to grow as a person.
This is not a license to be rude. Just because the reader is responsible for their reaction does not mean that we can just let the arrows fly and post any inflammatory statement that comes to mind. I think most of the people that have been here a while understand that. Most of us newbies are learning it.

I value this community and the people who are here. The whole spectrum, from the ever congenial, ever forgiving, ever tolerant MartaLina to the ever confrontational Gisteron we can learn from each other if we can get past the offense that is always available to be taken and, instead, endeavor to forgive the offense.
Now, someone please remind me of this the next time I get offended :S