The value of "time in the community"

For many this is going to be a touchy subject, so I would like to remind everyone to keep it civil. My goal is to have zero naming, calling out, finger pointing, and blaming done. I want to have a calm, honest, open discussion about what value a person's "time in the community" really has. I thought about putting this in the members only forum but I decided to place it here because there are some whom this might directly relate to that might not be able to access it there. If a moderator feels that that would be a better place for it later on it can be moved.

Bringing up a person's "time the community" is interesting to me. It usually seems to happen only when two criteria are met, rarely is it just one of them. 1) That person is relatively unknown within TOTJO and 2) that person has said something that others have deemed rude and are calling that person out for it. It is frequently when those two criteria are met that someone else says "Well [person x] has been in the Jedi community for [y] years." Sometimes it's person x themselves who say it, but not always.

It is almost never brought up when that person is well known to us here and/or has been particularly awesome. The other day when I congratulated Cabur and MadHatter for a particularly well handled disagreement no one said "Well Cabur/MadHatter has been in the Jedi community for [y] years."

Why is that?

The most obvious answer I can see is that in the first and most common scenario person x has been rude and someone is trying to justify it. Person x has spent a long time in the community, therefore they can be rude. This is usually followed up with "They're a really nice person, they just take some time to get use to" or "they just don't make a good first impression" or my personal favorite "They're nicer in person." That doesn't mean a lot to the people they have hurt. The hurt people are not always new to the Jedi community, but it seems that they frequently are and they don't get a good taste of it when that happens.

Another answer is that in the second example no one needs it pointed out because Cabur and Hatter showed that they are good Jedi through their actions. No qualifier is needed because we saw it. We don't have to question it. Boom. Jedi. Those kinds of interactions cause new people to say "Wow. These Jedi are great, I want to be a part of this community."

I only bring this up because it has happened numerous times in my relatively short time here. (coming up on 2 years :woohoo: ). Yes, there was one incident recently that sparked this for me, but it has happened many times and come from numerous Jedi.

My real question is, why is it okay for a person to have been rude if they've been in the Jedi community for a long time?

Please do not take this to mean that I think poorly of all people who spend time outside of TOTJO. That's not it at all. There are many members here who I know spend time elsewhere whom I get along with wonderfully. They are not the problem. It's the people who expect a pass on rudeness because they are Jedi that I am questioning. I know we don't like telling people how to be good Jedi, but is that really how we want Jedi seen? Is that how these people want Jedi here to see a representative of their home or main Jedi community?

That's not how I want people to see TOTJO. That's not how I want people to see Jedi as a whole. We all say that we don't care what the world at large thinks of us, but it would be nice if they at least didn't think we were all rude. They can think we all wear robes and hoods and carry lightsabers. They can think we all practice telekinesis. I don't care about that. But I would really like them to also think of us as nice people, and excusing rude behavior because of "time in the community" is going to do the exact opposite of that. It tells people "Oh, well people who have been Jedi longer are ruder. Jediism must not be a nice thing then."

In the end what I really want to know is, why should a person's time in the community sway us into excusing rude behavior? What do you expect people to say when that is brought up? What value does all that time have if person x still can't act decent to the members here, new or old?

My feelings are probably evident, but I am open to changing them. Please, treat each other well during this discussion. We are all Jedi, and more importantly, we are all people and we are all worthy of respect based on that fact alone.

How do you define "Rude Behavior?"

i am much less interested in "time" than i am in "input" and so if i see someone giving input that i dont think is very good i actually will consider their "time" as potentially a mark against them

but in some cases what i think is possible is that past familiarity can be a reason to look more closely and not judge someones words too quickly

so like if i spend the next year posting as frequently as i have in the last year, and especially if i am able to mature at least as much in the next year as i have in the last, then by the end of that time, those of you who are here will definitely have an established familiarity with me

if it so happens that my life after that next year makes it unlikely for me to be active, but at some point i pop up out of nowhere and i just happen to see a situation that i have a strong feeling about, and i use strong language when i speak on it, there will be some in the community at that time who, because they have some familiarity with me, might say "well Ob1 said something critical here, but weve had a lot of experiences in the past and i have seen that he is a decent guy, and even if this post is harsh i know that the person behind it really does take the time to consider his positions and also cares about the community, so instead of seeing only the harshness, maybe t would be fair to consider that he might be saying something that has got some truth to it as well"

but others who dont recognize me will just call me a jerk, or whatever

something like that

its not the only angle but it is AN angle

My Jedi ism allows anyone to be valid at anytime even at the same time. A bit difficult to say and even harder to do. Finding a good balance in your personal path can be done but not without effort. For some their words are their weapon. Depending on the individual how they use their words, their intentions is very evident. As with all good Jedi teachings... being weary... paying attention to them, is a gift we can have. Your noticing more and that means your on the growing track. Be strong friend. Finding your own balance is tough stuff, souround your self with dead and the smell will overtake you, dig and grow to receive fruits of time and effort.

In my view, it's because people who bring their brand of trouble but have also been in the community for a long time are like a drunk uncle. You know he's gonna be drunk. But, he's also your uncle... he's family. So, he's invited to the party. I wouldn't invite in a random drunk off the street. And, I wouldn't invite a friend who's always drunk.

Family is different.

Is that an ok perspective? Probably not. Perhaps we shouldn't be inviting drunk uncles. *shrugs*

I woudl think that one thing to remember is that not all "Jedi" places teach or believe teh same thing. And we are all at different points in our path, which ever it is we follow.

I get the feeling that a lot of time it has to do with respect. Whether it is felt that they are owed it, some one respects them and then covers for them (which is one reason it is hard for people to be objective when it comes to their friends) or, there is the possibility that actions have caused a loss of respect. And a lot of times people confuse respect with pride. It is probably a much more complicated answer than can be discovered for a general "one size fits all" answer. And would have to be addressed in a case by case study to come up with a more accuarte reason for each situation.

But this is a good thing to ponder and keep in mind when interacting with others.

Disclaimer: I am in no means trying to sound rude, disrespectful, heated, emotional or.....Whatever You (the reader) might imply. I simply opened up my note pad and typed my thoughts as one on the receiving end of this situation. Often. Take it. Leave it. I am not here to prove a point. Simply share my perspective.

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I have had "Time in the Jedi Community." In fact I was around long before Temple of the Jedi Order even formed. I was apart of the groups and communities that helped inspire Temple of the Jedi Order. (Jedi Sanctuary) I was active when it was just starting. I was around when it tore into two temples. I felt the backlash of it's break (Discussions were hot those days!) I was an observer when it reformulated into new leadership. I watched as it changed it's face and rules...several times.

And then I had kids and fell off the map as a new parent

When I cam back I was no longer a respected member of the community. Instead I was brash, rude, disrespectful, ignorant, arrogant and....well. There were a few other crude labels New Jedi placed upon me. But *Shrugs* Oh and to poke fun at my instructor - Banned for 2 years Twice! Love you Jestor! *hugs*

My methods of communication were suddenly unacceptable because I was used to how things used to be.

Used to be I could post links about other Jedi Communities and be welcomed with open arms. Because Jedi helped eachother.

Now we can't. Not just at TOTJO but many other places these days. I did not know. Yet somehow...I was rude and disrespectful to rules and guidelines.

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Used to be we could hold Super Hot debates that would drag on for 100's of pages and at the end of it, people patting eachother on the back because it was a debate, not a breaking up love affair.

Now we get 5 pages and people are crying "Rude Behavior" and Unappropriateness.

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Used to be we could voice our dislike of something and the members actually concider it without assuming the person as having "Rude Behavior"

Now it is disrespectful and pot stirring because you refuse to adapt to the groups ways.

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Used to be we could teach and share lessons across communities because Jedi saught Knowledge and Training wherever it came from.

Now it is against the Rules unless you are a Knight.

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Perspective.

What constitue Rude behavior? Recently a very old member came in and voiced his opinions on a subject. Most of you "New" Jedi say he was rude. Yet if we look at his comment objectivly we might see that his comments were no more rude or kind than anyone else in that thread. His views were simply not your views.

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Perspective.

When you know someone. Like say members of TOTJO that have been around awhile and is familiar to you. You can easily think behind the words and find matches to past behaviors - thus, influancing your response to their responses....Rude or not.

But when they are new. You don't know them and don't know how to judge them. And instead of doing the work to get to know them....You expect them to cow down and bow to your way until you are comfortable with there pressence enough to take a bit of heat.



Since I am one of those "Members that has been around" I will obviously say that there is great value in Time in Community. We can learn alot from those individuals if we cared to take a moment to listen rather than dismiss them because they are unfamiliar to you.

Acceptance. Isn't that part of the Doctrine?


To offer another scenario. I know of a Jedi that is concidered a Founder to the Jedi Path. Of late due to some unfortunate sittuations...he has become quite bitter and judgmental. Enough that he would fit my definition of "Rude Behavior"

However.

Despite these behavior, what he has done in his time is astonishing and very respectable.

Rather than sit here and judge his current state of Rudeness and get hung up on how he behaves now. I choose to learn more about him and what he has done in his "Time in the community" to gain a deeper understanding, knowledge and respect for the work he has done.


What I find amusing is that this community is so quick to dismiss those before us. But thirst on old philosophers and spiritual leader wisdom.

If Lao Tzu were to come here to the temple in a precieved "Rude" manner. Would you suddenly dismiss the wisdom in the Tao Te Ching? Or if Joseph Campbell were to come to the temple today and say "You guys have missrepresented me all wrong!! This is how it should be understood" Would you dismiss him because he is that one guy thats been around trying to tell us what to do?

History is made up by those that worked time in the fields. Sometimes all that time and work can make hands rough and tounge sharp. It is great taht younger and newer people can come into those fields and improve what was.....But should we do so while dismissing the work that was done there before?

I do not think so. But what do I know? I am just that one person that has been around the block a couple more times that some of you. Nothing special Just an old and tired shoe.

I figure, the longer I am in a community (Jedi, a job, a family, etc.) the more oppurtunities I will have to learn something, to broaden my horizons, to understand myself better.

That said, I cannot pretend I have taken every oppurtunity to do that. In some cases, I have gotten better and better. In others, I have gotten pretty sloppy because I shifted focus from what I was learning to what I already knew. Or, I just lost interest. If I have snarked at the Old Guard in the past, I was snarking at people who seemed, at least to me, to be devoid of curiosity. I am often mistaken, thankfully.

A big difference is that in my career, I must constantly justify my presence and prove that I have a place. In an online community, I need only lurk for some number of years. Different demands.

Time spent must count for something, if only a benefit of the doubt. Not everyone has put up with the rigors that I have. Some have worked a great deal harder. I cannot claim to be able to spot the difference at a glance most of the time.

In my work, I am told that I am only as good as my last treatment outcome. I hope that is not he entire truth, but I can't say it is entirely false either.

I feel, the only time "time at anything" should be brought up, is when ask....

It feels like bragging, or defensive when it is brought up in other ways... To ME, not that it does to anyone else....

Why is it important?

I generally throw out the "Ive been Jedi since '77" as a counter measure to the 'time in community' stance... Simply because I can, and most of you cannot beat that, as you are too young, lol...

But, so what?

Im no better than you, less learned in many areas, learned from many younger people here, my master was younger than me, my apprentices are younger than me, and yet I still learn from them....

I dont lord my age/time over anyone, anymore... I probably did when I was younger...

ren (and others) might tell you I do bring up age a lot, but, how are you to have experience without it? A lot of experience, many types, and many times.... I didnt have that when I was young... It doesnt make me "right" only generally, more experinced... But, if I have had the right experiences, then I also should know that I can be wrong, and that really, none of this stuff matters, :lol:...

Time in "anything" means squat, as Jedi, we know we only have the NOW (or should know) and as Cabur said, we are only as good as our last xyz... Those who know us will respect us even after a f-up, but, a person who does not know us will not... Come read the TOTJO facebook comments, two dudes dont like me, and one ask how to remove me as Admin, lol... I told him to come here and plead his case, lolol.....

Anyway....

I didnt walk into totjo talking about my 'time on the path', cause, lol, this is the internet, lol...

And, its not my style...

I am some clown on a path through life, and trying to do my best, and that means I was respectful of the "house rules" (looking for connor and his sig. quote) until I was an accepted family member...

The "value of experience" is what is improtant, to me anytway, but, I am not buying you telling me anything about your time... I am watching you (whoever) and by your actions, I will know for myself...

"I have belonged to the martial arts school for 10 years, I went every day!..."

Oh? lets see what you know, verbally, or physically....

This will go one of two ways, they will show me they have learned, or not...

If they really attended, really paid attention and learned, then all will be as they say...

If not, well, then maybe they didnt go every day, or for ten years, or they were worried more about getting hurt than learning, or, or, or, or....

Time, really dont mean anything...

At least for me...

I don't care how people choose to communicate (here or anywhere, really). I am interested in the content beyond the tone. Time in the community doesn't mean anything to me personally...I give them a pass for the same reason I give everyone a pass.

I see no advantage to being offended.

If I can't get over how a person's communication style makes me feel, I need to take a break and consider my own perception flawed as I am unable to pay attention to the important parts of the message.

If I show respect to a person it is because I, in turn, like to receive respect.