Misogynism

RyuJin wrote: let's make a law forcing them to hire unqualified people to meet a quota based on gender or skin color...basically fighting discrimination with reversed discrimination....that's not true equality nor implied equality...

Affirmative Action is not meant as a quota system to force equality, that would be blunt and ineffective. It is meant as a tool to break the proverbial glass ceiling by achieving penetration in an otherwise closed environment to allow cultural habits to change enough to passively resolve discriminatory practices through exposure to working with those minorities. It would fail if kept too long, or if those minority workers were not qualified or effective. AA is meant as a chance for those minorities to show there stuff in an otherwise unreachable environment due to discriminatory culture. Those people who worked in difficult discriminatory workplaces for their minorities suffered a TON of discrimination which was most often oblivious to those perpetuating it, and because things like gender discrimination were so pervasive it required its own 'ism'. Remembering it was not that long ago that women were not even allowed to vote.

Abhaya Budhil wrote: Men's clothing is definitely constructed better. It is sturdier and more functional.

You can say it's a woman's choice to use makeup, but that isn't completely true. Some women can choose not to wear makeup and still be successful, but most are pushed to wear makeup even when they don't want to, are expected to put on makeup for jobs and job interviews, are required to completely shave their legs and armpits or face ridicule, often have to paint their nails to be socially acceptable, are pushed to learn to accessorize with jewelry, etc.

As far as hobbies and interests, what someone actually likes depends on the person. What they have to act like they like is determined by social rules. Men are expected to like sports, cars, drinking, tools, etc. Women are expected to like dresses, flowers, arts and crafts, cooking, etc. Women can usually do "male things" without too much ridicule, even if it isn't encouraged. Men usually face ridicule and even violence for doing "female things." This is because masculinity is desirable and femininity isn't.

Women are exposed to more sexism right from the start. Women are less likely to get hired in the first place, or even called in for job interviews. They are also harassed for what they are wearing. Either it is deemed to be too revealing, and they are opening themselves up for criticism, or it is deemed to be too prudish, and they should feel lucky someone is paying attention to them. They are also pushed not to report harassment. When men don't report harassment because they have to be "manly" what would you call that? A product of a society that believes men have to be strong? That is exactly what I have already said, and it is what feminism fights against (as I have also said).

Have you ever worn woman clothing? if not then how can you say that their clothes are constructed worse. it is the persons choice in what they wear. i have been wearing the same clothes for 5 years now and not a problem from it.
We are not forced to wear make up except for that the past generations have made it seem like we do. I for one do not wear makeup because i find no reason to and it actually ruins your skin. WE also wear makeup to make ourselves look better but don't guys do the same? Guys wear better clothing, comb their hair or do whatever. yeah woman have more stuff to do because we can do more stuff.
For hobbies. IT id not based off of social rules at all and if you believe so then that is because you have been around people that do not want to be different. Men are not expected to like any of that stuff you said. it may be assumed but it is not expected and the same goes for women.
Just a lot of what you say is not true at all.

I have worn women's clothing. I was raised female for 18 years. That's why I can say that I have seen the things I am talking about, both in statistics and in personal experience. I see both sides of the coin here. My jeans used to rip all the time in high school, no matter how hard I tried to be gentle on them. Now I don't have to try to be nice to my jeans at all. They just don't rip as easily. My dress clothes used to have loose strings and tears in the seams all the time. Now they don't have any problems at all.

I was teased all the time in high school because I wore my hair pulled back every day, never wore makeup, and wore jeans and t-shirts instead of more feminine clothing. Now people don't assume that I don't know how to dress just because I wear jeans and sweatshirts to school. I put a bit of water on my hair and comb it in the morning, but I'm not expected to style it. Before, people always told me I should get it cut nice or straighten it or curl it or do anything except keep it out of my face. I'm also no longer expected to put makeup on my face if I'm breaking out.

I'm not big on sports, cars, or physical work. Everyone expects that I should go to the gym, but I just don't like the gym. I like painting, crafting, making friendship bracelets, reading, writing, crying over TV shows. These are all used against me as reasons I'm not "male enough." I have no male friends, no matter how many guys I try to talk to, no matter how much I want to just do whatever others are doing because I don't mind doing the "masculine things" that the guys grew up learning to do. They just don't come naturally to me. But I'm just not seen as one of the guys. I'm "too feminine." Because society does put these expectations on men, and they do suffer for it. And feminism fights that.

What I say is true, both statistically and in my own experience of seeing the drastic change in how I am treated and what is expected of me now compared to how I was treated and what was expected of me as a female. And that's why I stand behind my feminism so strongly. I see how the world really is, I see where that comes from, and I see that feminism is fighting against it.

I often think a lot of what makes a guy a guy and a girl a girl is the hormones, but I'm only talking about bodily feelings and not thoughts - I cannot comment on transgender as I've no idea about that. Its often said men who inject too much testosterone develop 'exaggerated' temperaments, and likewise women with PMS could be said to have similar variation in their nature. I personally think guys like aggressive and dangerous sports as a result of that, and not upbringing. Expression of gender in western society might be to some extent representations of the impact of hormones, which could be possible given a relatively free society - but there is no doubt in my mind society is quick to impart an expectation on every part of life if one were to let it.

It's possibly a combination of both. I haven't suddenly become interested in sports since I've been on hormones. But I was also not raised in a house with parents who watched sports. It also doesn't account for the fact that men are brought up to like sports that aren't very violent (such as baseball). Or why men with lower hormone levels still watch violent sports. I think the tendency toward action and some violence could definitely be hormone based. The fact that this manifests in an obsession with teams, trading players, etc. is upbringing. You don't have to follow specific teams or players to enjoy the action. But most sports fans do that anyway because that's how people are expected to enjoy sports. It's just a giant game of trying to decide what is a natural tendency and what is just societal pressure, but without removing the pressure we can't ever tell. And with the pressure, those who don't have the same natural tendencies end up ridiculed.

I can see where you're coming from. A while back I was following a YouTube channel that a trans* made to document her transition from male to female. It showed the exact type of ridicule you speak of, but she has since overcome her obstacles. She still has to deal with people not respecting her decision in her daily life. After seeing all of that, I've come to understand how daunting it is to want to fit in, but can't completely because of the stigma related to it and how society doesn't want to change to include her and others like her. While you may not be into sports and think that society deems it necessary to do so as a male, I can attest my personal likes and dislikes and I'm not into sports, either. I don't feel obligated to like them and have accepted myself and my stance on it. I just don't care for them as much as being professional at my job, caring for my family, and finding people with similar interests to be friends with. It may not be the same arena, but for decades it was seen as a bad thing to be so much into video games, books, and technology. In other words, we were nerds and geeks. Now, everybody wants to be labeled as a nerd or geek. It's almost seen as the "cool" thing to do. I say give it some time. Before long, things will change for the better and we'll see how we end up as a society.

Abhaya Budhil wrote: Men's clothing tends to be constructed better and more functional for the same price. Men aren't expected to use as many grooming products and there is more of a range of acceptable grooming practices for professional wear... Women tend to face sexism and sexual harassment more. They are also often blamed when they are sexually assaulted and are taught ways not to be assaulted, but we spend very little time focusing on teaching anyone about what counts as consent.

And this is the part where I'm walking away from this thread, because literally everything you said is incorrect in numerous ways, and it is making me very, very frustrated.

Abhaya you are completely out of touch with reality.

ren wrote: Abhaya you are completely out of touch with reality.

I wouldn't say that so much as he is chasing rainbows at this point. Clutching at straws and not touching solid ground. For the sake of common ground, it's safe to say that we all want acceptance for who we are and not what society thinks we should be. Am I wrong?

Luthien wrote:

ren wrote: Abhaya you are completely out of touch with reality.

I wouldn't say that so much as he is chasing rainbows at this point. Clutching at straws and not touching solid ground. For the sake of common ground, it's safe to say that we all want acceptance for who we are and not what society thinks we should be. Am I wrong?

We're all 'out-of-touch' with reality to some extent, ren ... Reality is sort of slippery for a species such as ours that has memories to deform and aspirations to a 'better' future.

And you're most certainly not wrong, Luthien. We don't accept ourselves the way we are already, which is what leads us to try filling in that hole with the acceptance of others ; living in the difference between what "is" and what "should be" is a pretty hostile terrain.