Misogynism

steamboat28 wrote:

Abhaya Budhil wrote: Other than your comment about how the clothing choices aren't different, all I've heard is "you're wrong" without any explanation of why I'm wrong or any actual counterpoints.

You're wrong because your talking points are inaccurate. You're wrong because the modern ideal of masculinity has absolutely nothing at all to do with being masculine--the modern ideal is that of a submissive, easily-controllable, feminized man that has been spraypainted over with testosterone and football team logos. You're wrong because men's clothing is poorly manufactured unless you buy from a handful of stupidly expensive companies that cater solely to "the working man." You're wrong because women have more options in their dress--not only the physical items, but in their freedom to wear them--than the modern Western man is allowed. You're wrong because in Western civilization men are denied the two historical markers of freedom in the workplace. You're wrong because corporate dress codes require feminized men--men shorn and close-cropped--because they're "safe" enough to be taken seriously. You're wrong because our modern civilization is the first example since Rome of supposedly free men assuming a short-haired default, and even the Romans cut the hair of their slave men. You're wrong because men are denied their right to freedom of appearance even when their facial hair is a necessary part of their spirituality. You're wrong because I have personally been fired from three jobs because I didn't put up with sexual harassment and misandrist decisionmaking, and (through talking with others), I can safely assume both of those things are the norm. You're wrong because feminism has perpetuated a culture that has a broad, general definition of rape, which only excludes consensual, premeditated sex, and anything that happens to men. You're wrong because "men can't be raped." You're wrong because even when we report sexual assault or harassment, we're not taken seriously, because we're told its impossible, or that "what guy doesn't want that?" You're wrong because in many cases when a man is assaulted, he's still assumed to be the aggressor. You're wrong because we live in a culture who has preached for nearly 70 years that men are nothing but negative tropes--bumbling oafs, rapists, abusers, morons. You're wrong because you can't name a sitcom with a decent male role model that's truly a sitcom. You're wrong because violence against women is vilified, and violence against men is routinely celebrated, cheered, or used for comedic effect. You're wrong because you can't quantify a person's worth or influence over society by the number of grooming products they use

Warning: Spoiler!

fyi, i use:

1. two different kinds of soap
2. very expensive, and specific shampoo because i care about my health
3. two kinds of conditioner
4. facial wash
5. facial scrub
6. disposable razors
7. straight razors
8. beard trimmers
9. shave soap
10. styptic pencil
11. aftershave
12. cologne
13. deodorant
14. body spray
15. nail strengthener
16. an entire bag literally overflowing with nail products
17. two brushes
18. three combs, one of which costs more than my average phone bill for 3" of length
19. eyeliner for nights out or nights onstage
20. beeswax
21. 3-4 kinds of hair tamer
22. baking soda
23. ACV
24. olive oil
25. eggwash
26. beer

and i'm sure i'm forgetting some things.

You're wrong because of so. many. reasons. that I cannot possibly list them all here without foaming at the mouth, because the attitudes you are forwarding are precisely the attitudes that have basically ruined any chance I have of being taken seriously professionally or privately. You're wrong because they're founded on assumptions instead of facts and ignorance instead of knowledge, and they're perpetuated by parroting other feminists who have no idea what they're talking about because they didn't bother to look at things themselves.

Is that clear enough?

Thank you. i would have stated all of this but i have been short on time to type everything out. SO thank you

rugadd wrote: I've been trying really hard to understand and empathize with all the ositions here, but I keep coming back to a "why does everything have to be explained?" place on it...

I dont mind conversation about it, I just sorta skim along, and make sure everyone is being nice...

What matters to people, is what matters to them....

It cant be helped...

It doesnt matter to me, so I am just a spectator in this conversation...

rugadd wrote: but I keep coming back to a "why does everything have to be explained?" place on it...

You're right, it doesn't.

The modern idea of masculinity is that of a strong working man who enjoys fast cars, girls, beer, sports, well fitting suits, muscles, and independence. Men are expected to pay for dates, have short hair, enjoy action movies, hold in their emotions, etc. All of this is unhealthy because it puts these high expectations on all men instead of allowing them the freedom to decide how to act and still be deemed acceptable. And all of this is related to the idea that femininity is bad, and the worst thing a man can do is be too much like a woman.

Yes, women often have more options (although the appropriate times to wear them is not always apparent. Most people don't have a clue what business casual is for women, but they know exactly what it is for men.). This is again related to the idea that women can often wear more masculine clothing but men cannot wear more feminine clothing. Why? Because femininity is bad.

I buy most of my clothes from Target, Khols, and occasionally Sears. I have never bought anything from an expensive store because I definitely can't afford it. The most trouble I have is that I often have to get my clothes tailored because most stores don't carry sizes small enough for me. The clothes are well made, and I'm not very gentle on them. I used to have to be ridiculously gentle with my clothes because they would tear easily when I wore women's clothing.

Having short hair is a sign of masculinity. Long hair is deemed to be "a girl haircut" and is often ridiculed. Because femininity is bad. Corporate dress codes don't always require clean-shaven men. Just men with tidy facial hair, which isn't much to expect since everyone is expected to have tidy faces. But women for some reason are expected to also shave their legs and armpits. Corporate dress codes also require that men know how to wear nice suits, and wear them well. Suits are a sign of masculinity. If you don't know how to wear a suit, you aren't masculine enough.

Men whose facial hair is a sign of their spirituality are sometimes denied the right to have their facial hair. This isn't a sign of misandry. This is a sign of racism and/or religious misunderstandings and possibly hatred. Women with religious practices that require them to have certain hairstyles or that prohibit the from carefully plucking or waxing every last facial hair are also discriminated against. That really isn't a gender difference.

Feminism does not advocate a definition of rape that says men cannot be raped. They advocate a definition of rape that includes everything except full consent. That is all. They recognize men can be raped (unless you're talking about radical feminists again, which I have already addressed). They also recognize that statistics show most rapists are men and most victims are women. They don't deny that men can be raped, but they ask people not to focus the majority of resources on men when the majority of victims are women. That's reasonable. A representative division of resources is clearly the best option.

Men are encouraged to hide rape, sexual assault, etc. and are seen only as aggressors and never as victims because of this idea that men cannot be weak. Again, feminism fights this idea of men in an effort to show that men do not have to be masculine.

I don't know any sitcoms, so I can't name one with bad male role models, either. Do any have good female role models that aren't painted as dumb blondes, teases, women being amusing when they think they matter, successful women who eventually fall back to their true nature of emotional bimbo, bitches, sluts, etc.?

No, you can't quantify a person's worth in society by how many grooming products they use. You can quantify how much society expects them to poke and prod at themselves to be deemed acceptable. You might use all of those products, but you are far from the norm and you are far from what is expected of men. If I ask my girlfriend if I can borrow her coverup because I am breaking out, people laugh at me because "that stuff is for girls." I know guys who like to have their nails done. They get laughed at because "that stuff is for girls." When men take a long time getting ready in the morning, the response is often, "You take longer than a girl!" Why? Because even though girls get made fun of and called ugly if they don't spend a lot of time on their appearance, their grooming procedures are seen as frivolous. It's seen as feminine, and feminine is bad.

Maybe Jedi are just a large collection of exceptions...

Abhaya Budhil wrote: The modern idea of masculinity is that of a strong working man who enjoys fast cars, girls, beer, sports, well fitting suits, muscles, and independence. Men are expected to pay for dates, have short hair, enjoy action movies, hold in their emotions, etc. All of this is unhealthy because it puts these high expectations on all men instead of allowing them the freedom to decide how to act and still be deemed acceptable. And all of this is related to the idea that femininity is bad, and the worst thing a man can do is be too much like a woman.

Yes, women often have more options (although the appropriate times to wear them is not always apparent. Most people don't have a clue what business casual is for women, but they know exactly what it is for men.). This is again related to the idea that women can often wear more masculine clothing but men cannot wear more feminine clothing. Why? Because femininity is bad.

I buy most of my clothes from Target, Khols, and occasionally Sears. I have never bought anything from an expensive store because I definitely can't afford it. The most trouble I have is that I often have to get my clothes tailored because most stores don't carry sizes small enough for me. The clothes are well made, and I'm not very gentle on them. I used to have to be ridiculously gentle with my clothes because they would tear easily when I wore women's clothing.

Having short hair is a sign of masculinity. Long hair is deemed to be "a girl haircut" and is often ridiculed. Because femininity is bad. Corporate dress codes don't always require clean-shaven men. Just men with tidy facial hair, which isn't much to expect since everyone is expected to have tidy faces. But women for some reason are expected to also shave their legs and armpits. Corporate dress codes also require that men know how to wear nice suits, and wear them well. Suits are a sign of masculinity. If you don't know how to wear a suit, you aren't masculine enough.

Men whose facial hair is a sign of their spirituality are sometimes denied the right to have their facial hair. This isn't a sign of misandry. This is a sign of racism and/or religious misunderstandings and possibly hatred. Women with religious practices that require them to have certain hairstyles or that prohibit the from carefully plucking or waxing every last facial hair are also discriminated against. That really isn't a gender difference.

Feminism does not advocate a definition of rape that says men cannot be raped. They advocate a definition of rape that includes everything except full consent. That is all. They recognize men can be raped (unless you're talking about radical feminists again, which I have already addressed). They also recognize that statistics show most rapists are men and most victims are women. They don't deny that men can be raped, but they ask people not to focus the majority of resources on men when the majority of victims are women. That's reasonable. A representative division of resources is clearly the best option.

Men are encouraged to hide rape, sexual assault, etc. and are seen only as aggressors and never as victims because of this idea that men cannot be weak. Again, feminism fights this idea of men in an effort to show that men do not have to be masculine.

I don't know any sitcoms, so I can't name one with bad male role models, either. Do any have good female role models that aren't painted as dumb blondes, teases, women being amusing when they think they matter, successful women who eventually fall back to their true nature of emotional bimbo, bitches, sluts, etc.?

No, you can't quantify a person's worth in society by how many grooming products they use. You can quantify how much society expects them to poke and prod at themselves to be deemed acceptable. You might use all of those products, but you are far from the norm and you are far from what is expected of men. If I ask my girlfriend if I can borrow her coverup because I am breaking out, people laugh at me because "that stuff is for girls." I know guys who like to have their nails done. They get laughed at because "that stuff is for girls." When men take a long time getting ready in the morning, the response is often, "You take longer than a girl!" Why? Because even though girls get made fun of and called ugly if they don't spend a lot of time on their appearance, their grooming procedures are seen as frivolous. It's seen as feminine, and feminine is bad.

Yes, but how do you feel about femininity?

Found something new today:

http://www.mgtow.com/

I feel that femininity is no less valid or acceptable than masculinity. But my opinion isn't going to change the fact that billions of people I will never meet are still living under an oppressive gender binary that hurts both men and women.

Ren, that concept is certainly interesting, and I'm glad there is a group of men who are taking charge of their options. I'm not sure there's a hostile attitude toward masculinity though. More and more women are taking on an "androgynous" look (which really just means more masculine). However, there aren't suddenly tons of men trying to be more feminine. How can there be widespread hostility toward masculinity if even the people who have always been expected to be feminine are trying to show that they can be masculine.

Abhaya, you seem to be missing the point. Your first reaction to a post about how men are standing up against their problems is to say that they don't have problems. You act as if women are the only people severely affected by societies rules and regulations. Men and women both have it rough, and to argue over which gender faces the most adversity does little to lessen the effect of that adversity on either side.

I do not mean this to be a personal attack, Abhaya, I certainly respect your opinions and beliefs. I do, however, think that you may be misunderstanding the standpoints of those who seem to be opposing you in this debate. Such as the most recent sermon has stated, it is more important to just band together as humans than to stick to one 'ism' for when you label something with an 'ism' you instantaneously shut out everything else. The label of feminism shuts out masculinity, the label humanism shuts out the rest of creation, the label Jediism even shuts out the rest of religion. To accept one you must accept all, since all is one, and one is all in the grand scheme of things.

Many of us seem to be forgetting to see the duality of all things, and that one cannot exist without the other.
Step one is to see your side of things. (Too many people stop there)
Step two is the see the opposite side of things also. (Yet more people stop here)
Step three is to understand the vary degrees of conjunction between the two sides. (At this point many people choose "where they stand" instead of going to the next step.
Step four is to see the thing for the whole and to seek the similarities of all instead of the differences. (I have obviously simplified this quite a bit though I think my point is fairly clear. i hope)

May the Force be with you,
Rai

I've kept largely silent here, previous discussions have established I support feminism while also challenging my fellow feminist activists to find better methods for outcomes. This said, for those not as actively researched in gender and women's studies, a good primer for both is a book written by Julia Serano called Whipping Girl . Abhaya, I get the feeling you've already read it

We have had multiple threads where these arguments have occurred, repeatedly, and repeatedly they die out as those expressing a feminist sentiment tire of an argument that seems to persuade no one. Lets focus, instead, on eliminating our preconceptions and disabusing our misconceptions. Ask yourself if your stake in the discussion is a reaction to what is said or a response based off your considered research and understanding. If you find it is a reaction, take a step back, study and read, but do so with the aim of understanding the other position, not of proving your own. If you come to the determination of impure motives, stop and try and find a different explanation first. Most individuals do not act on pure self-interest, cooperation and empathy are in our genetics just as they are in chimpanzees.

To provide a final sentiment however, I have seen the same sorts of responses as Brenna and have equally found them disconcerting. This was not a call by her to argue feminism yet again on these forums but rather to make this temple a more inviting place for all of its members.