Misogynism

Honestly, I don't think we even needed to have this discussion since I can verily assert that not one person who has posted a reply thinks that a woman has her place, nor that she should be limited to certain roles. Not one has been a woman, either, except for the OP. Why is it that more men are speaking out about this than women? It's most probably because men who feel misrepresented because of how radical feminism has painted us are still trying to say, "I'm not one of the bad guys." I, personally, do not feel obligated to prove one way or the other whether I'm the bad guy or not; my actions will speak for themselves. Statistics or not, I am who I am regardless of the information that can easily be gotten with a simple Google search.

Also, to reflect on an earlier reply you posted, gender is a physical trait that you are born with. You can't control which gender you are born as any more than you can control what skin you come out with, the color of your eyes, your hair, your parents. I understand that some men and women are born with the opposite gender brain, which can affect how that person sees themselves. Many are born thinking that they were born the wrong gender. Studies have shown that men and women's brains are differently wired in that one has more gray/white matter than the other. This, physically, makes it easier for women to multitask and for men to stay single-mindedly focused. It comes down to how we evolved as a species and that every day we try and defy our evolution by doing the opposite. I'm not saying that it's a good or bad thing, just stating the facts.

http://www.webmd.com/balance/features/how-male-female-brains-differ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism
http://www.womenagainstmen.com/media/feminism-is-a-hate-group.html

Luthien wrote: Why is it that more men are speaking out about this than women?

In all honesty, it was probably a combination of the tone and societal b.s. For example, I'm relatively certain Brenna wasn't directly talking about me, but because I own man-parts, I've been pushed to the defensive by default in gender discussions consistently over the last sixteen years, so it felt personal even if it wasn't. And I can't be the only one whose had that experience.

That's true for me, too. Maybe that's why when I hear females talking about how bad men are I get so defensive because I am a man, myself, and I don't partake in the bad activities they describe. As you said, it feels like a personal attack even if it isn't. Great point!

I think though that when someone says "Most rapists are men" or "LGBT people are oppressed by a society that favors cisgender heterosexual people" and you hear "Men and straight people are bad" instead of trying to attack the people who are just voicing their experiences of oppression, focus on attacking the people who are allowing society to continue to oppress certain groups of people more than others. Instead of trying to force the oppressed group to spend a lot of time changing their language, spend that time on working toward equality and solutions that benefit society as a whole. Instead of talking about how you aren't like that, talk about the people who are like that and how you can correct societal wrongs that give people advantages for no reason other than how they are born.

And of course people's brains tend to be wired differently depending on gender, but not so much that we would have these enormous gender differences without socialization and perceptions of femininity. Women might have a better time multitasking. Men might have a better time focusing. Women might have a better eye for colors while men have a better eye for space. But do those matter so much that women are only suited for certain jobs while men are suited for others? Or that boys and girls should be raised to behave differently?

I'm only here because I'm an anti-feminist and I don't like being put in the misogynist category... One of the reasons I dislike feminism is because it categorises anyone who isn't a feminist as an enemy of feminism...

Abhaya Budhil wrote: Her entire argument was based on the same stereotype of feminism that I've already said just isn't true. She's talking about radical feminists, who make up a very small but loud part of the feminist movement and are more often than not shunned by the majority of other feminists. Since she wasn't actually arguing against the reality of feminism, and was only arguing against her own stereotypes of what a feminist is, I don't think there's much to respond to there. She might not call herself a feminist because she has this bad image of feminism, but she sounds like most feminists I know.

She doesnt sound like you or Brenna. or any feminist I've ever heard.


Steamboat:

I rather like girlwriteswhat (knowledgeable and logical, I like the way she says things too), however she sides with MRMs, which are a byproduct of feminism. MRMs may seem like a liberator now, but they will eventually turn into the same gender-based oppressor feminism is.

ren wrote: MRMs may seem like a liberator now, but they will eventually turn into the same gender-based oppressor feminism is.

I'm under no personal illusions on that front, but MRMs are a good placeholder to remind us that men have issues caused by societal constructs, too. I think in the grand scheme they're just holding the floor for the men's side of the gender debates until something better comes along, or we reach equality.

The point is that oppression needs to stop, regardless of what their stance is. Whether it be about women's rights, men's rights, LGBT rights, or what have you, oppression is wrong no matter how one colors it. Trying to force one's own beliefs onto another is a form of oppression. Indoctrination, in other words, is a form of oppression for children. So, yes, while I agree that certain socialization norms may be a bit indoctrinating, most are just trying to raise their kids to get along in society, not to be the opposite of who they are. To be who they are while getting along with their community. We are a community based species, are we not? We need to be able to get along with each other if it should work. Some cultures teach certain values to their children while others teach differently. So, are entire cultures wrong because you disagree with them? Is your culture wrong because someone else views it as wrong?

If we can learn to respect people as people instead of how they were born, that's one step forward. If we can have a great personal respect for another for their good deeds instead of what group they were born into, that's another step forward. Continue the path of understanding and love and we can all benefit from it.

Luthien wrote: Trying to force one's own beliefs onto another is a form of oppression.

In this case, the education system, all religion, 90% of science, and 130% of all media programming are oppressive, and should immediately cease.

I don't know, but I think I prefer the term "equalist" or something. As I'm reading this thread more I'm beginning to understand why some people are against feminism. I guess if I'm going to go with an -ism I'd call mine equalism. Whether its women, men, LGBT, or even race I believe we all deserve the same rights and opportunities.

Also, I'm sorry, but "Affirmative Action" and "EEO" are a fine kettle of crock. We will not advance a single iota in the world of race and gender relations until we stop seeing these classifications in the professional world period. To clarify, once hired women and men should have similar but separate rights. For instance, maternity leave and paternity leave should remain distinct along with other such things (such as they are). During the hiring process there should be NO consideration at all for gender or skin color. In fact, I'd almost advocate for blind interviews or phone interviews so the hiring manager doesn't even know those factors.

Maybe a little music to relax.
I warn you, it's at least second degree humor :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj5fQpuxkPI