Misogynism

You are mistaking correlation for causation Abhaya.

Just because two things are related, does not mean that one causes the other.

For example:
Red cars are pulled over more frequently than cars of any other color. If I asked you why red cars are pulled over more you might reply, "Because they are red." You would, however, be mistaken. The real cause is that the type of person that is more likely to speed is the same type of person that is attracted to red cars. This is the same reason more sports cars come in red than four door sedans.

May the Force be with you,
Rai

@ Abhaya Budhil

In post…
http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/General-Discussions/104729-misogynism?start=130#119043

You have a very impressive argument made with a lot of statistics. I have no idea the validity of the percentages but feel they are probably pretty close to accurate.

I wonder what the cause of the difference is? Let me explain…
Is it because men (I happen to be a guy) are holding women down, not letting them succeed, or because for some other reason they are not applying for those positions as much? I interview a lot of people and in my field; there are just not as many female applicants. Is this because many women don’t have a desire to work in engineering? I have no idea.

I do suspect that expectations placed on us has a lot to do with how we decide what to pursue. Hypothetical: maybe because of the expectations of females by other females as well as males. I really don’t know though! I see everyone as being capable of pursuing what they want. I would like for my daughter to go into engineering. Not because I want her to follow in my footsteps or something like that, but because as long as we make stuff, we will need engineers. It’s a stable, good paying career choice in my opinion.

We currently have twelve engineers at my place of employment and only one is female. There use to be two female engineers on staff but one got a better job offer somewhere else.

I have noticed, walking through the mall, different people tend to trend particular ways. Like, there are very few if any males working in the stores which are related to fashion. A lot of the food retailers employ what seems to be younger staff. When I drive down the street I see mostly male work crews at a construction site. When I go to renew my vehicle registration I have noticed that the staff is predominantly female.

Come to think of it, the only place where I see a more equal ratio of male to female is the restraint industry. And it is more apparent (to me) in the wait staff. Yes, they are usually younger, but the male/female ratio is probably the most evenly distributed. Maybe that’s just where I live.

So my question then becomes, are we holding each other back more on a peer level than anything else? Just curious as to other’s opinions.

I feel that you are correct as I, too, see this very same trend. I don't think it's as important the ratio of men to women in a certain field as is the drive and ambition for each to pursue their goals in life. If one is being held back from their pursuits based on their gender, that's where I see the unfairness coming into play. Where I see the most disadvantage is the quota for certain genders and race that some companies use just to show their employment fairness, which is unfair in itself.

Being in the military for so long, I haven't been able to see it as much because I haven't been in the job market for some time. Just recently (maybe about 6-9 months ago), the military started allowing women to take part on the front lines, which is something that has been a bit of a controversy for a while. As stated in a previous reply to this topic, equal rights over complete equality. There are women who have the strength and fortitude to accomplish the same as a man on the battlefield, but not many. That doesn't mean that the military is trying to keep women from taking part in it, there are just standards which have to be maintained that many women can't keep up with. And it's not to keep them out of it, but for health and safety reasons.

As for physical training tests, it is a bit unfair because females get to do less to pass. I don't see why, but I suspect that the doctors who came up with the metrics for measuring their standards understood that, though women can be as strong as men, the average woman isn't going to be equally strong. Of course, this is based on statistical data, alone. Do I like it? No, because if a standard is to be set, it should be standard across the board. This is a reality we have to deal with, not some pride contest.

MTFBWY,

-Luthien

Certain fields are definitely hostile to women, and they tend to be the higher paying fields. I know a lot of women who went into engineering but were discouraged from pursuing it because of the sexism and misogyny in a very masculine dominated field. Other such fields are the same. That doesn't mean no women will go into it, but many who might want to see it as something unattainable.

The reason women tend toward certain fields and men tend toward others has to do with socialization. Women are encouraged by teachers, family, peers, and media to go into fields that happen to pay less. They often don't even consider anything else as an option. Men are encouraged to go into higher paying fields even if they might have skills more suited to teaching or social work. Both men and women would benefit from a breakdown of the idea that masculinity is good and femininity is bad.

As far as women in leadership, that's a double standard as well. If a man is out there and aggressive, it's a good thing. If a woman is, she's a bitch and needs to calm down. If a man says something people don't like, they focus on what he said and why it was wrong. If a woman does, they focus on what she is wearing and attack her fashion sense, which doesn't even allow her to defend her position. If a man is in power and has a breakdown, it's seen as him just not being able to handle the pressure. If a woman has a breakdown, it's because all women are inherently weak and not fit for power.

Restraint industry? This IS a family thread... :laugh:

I disagree, in part, Abhaya. The trend is changing because these things have been put in the light over the years. The times are changing, nevertheless. I don't see a drop in female doctors just because they were brought up on the notion that women need to be the family caretaker, nor do I see less male teachers because they were brought up on the notion that a man needs to provide for his family, or that it isn't manly. We draw inspiration from many people and things that interest us, not just what our parents did, or currently do.

On a side note, how recent is your Sociology text book?

I went to the Society of Women Engineers web site and was led to a document produced by the National Science Foundation.

http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/wmpd/2013/pdf/nsf13304_digest.pdf

I admit that I am a bit bias as toward the authenticity and genuine nature of the work done by the National Science Foundation. They may have their own agenda (I’m sure most do) but I like to think that the people there are more interested in the science then the politics.

I also like to think I would not steer my daughter in a bad direction. Seeing how I happen to be a guy in a male dominated field.

Here is the link to the Society of Women Engineers…
http://societyofwomenengineers.swe.org/index.php/trends-stats#activePanels_

Here is a site where Engineers discuss this exact topic.
http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Engineers-why-is-this-such-117554.S.202367823

And the National Science Foundation also did a study on the salary gap between Men and Women.
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/issuebrf/sib99352.htm
This report is a little outdated as it was done in 1999.

Not being well informed about this topic I decided to spend a little time and acquaint myself with some research.

Yo wouldn't see a drop in female doctors because this isn't about trends changing against women. This is about trends being against women for hundreds of years. They are now getting better, but they aren't anywhere near equal. It is about socialization. Parents don't even realizing they're raising their boys differently from their girls, but they do. And that affects people throughout their lives. It is changing, but not much. The advancement of women in certain industries and in leadership has increased in the past few decades, but has actually flatlined in the past few years.

I haven't ever taken a Sociology class. All of this information is available with a simple Google search. I found the statistics I used from Forbes, Newsweek, and a Women's Media Center study, and I've heard similar statistics other places before as well.

83.7% of statistics are made up on the spot.

Ah, well, it was just a guess, not an attack. I meant no harm.

I would say that it depends on what the parents' intent is when raising their children. Honestly, having only boys, I don't see it very much, but, I don't preclude them from liking what they do. I have one boy who likes playing with dolls, but I don't stop him from doing so because it's what he likes to do during play time and I wouldn't tell him what he can or can't play with based on his gender. That aside, all of my boys have different personalities, of which I foster their interests to see how they'll use them. My intent while raising my boys is to foster learning by curiosity. In other words, the scientific approach to learning. If I had a girl, I would do the same. Both my mother and father did this same thing, so I suppose it's only natural that I continue on the tradition of this method. I'm not saying that you're wrong in this regard, but generalizing all parents only begs the question.