Misogynism

For the sake of common ground, it's safe to say that we all want acceptance for who we are and not what society thinks we should be. Am I wrong?

I agree. I wonder if it's a good thing though. Inquisition-style "any deviant will be executed" systems do not seem all that great, however I find today's society as a whole has a certain lack of direction. Everyone seems concerned about having rights more than anything else. This "entitlement" system won't last much longer.

We're all 'out-of-touch' with reality to some extent, ren ... Reality is sort of slippery for a species such as ours that has memories to deform and aspirations to a 'better' future.

There's a difference between having different experiences of reality (what we understand to be real is only what we can actually see, which can vary quite a lot), and seeing things that just aren't there.

Alexandre Orion wrote: ...living in the difference between what "is" and what "should be" is a pretty hostile terrain.

I agree. Perhaps this is the reason I live day by day in quiet internal contemplation over the abstraction of my own thoughts against reality. To me, most everything that is perceived as an expectation of others on myself is merely an abstraction. To this, I find that my own particular view may be skewed, but my way of dealing with things is still my own. I have found time and time again that how I expect things to turn out is either slightly off or completely opposite of what actually happens. I've stopped expecting people to behave certain ways based off of experience. This is why I don't expect anything in particular. It either happens, or it doesn't, then I let it go. People will be people, expectation or not.

ren wrote: I agree. I wonder if it's a good thing though. Inquisition-style "any deviant will be executed" systems do not seem all that great, however I find today's society as a whole has a certain lack of direction. Everyone seems concerned about having rights more than anything else. This "entitlement" system won't last much longer.

True, but, lack of direction doesn't necessarily mean anything bad. I think the entitlement you speak of is very prominent in today's society, no doubt. People expect to have their hands held for them, for others to tell them where to go, what to do, and when someone does, they act like they didn't need it in the first place. Which is true. They didn't need it to begin with, but they most certainly demanded it with no sense of humility or gratitude. Now, I need to stop before I start writing a novel about it. Good conversation starter!

True, but, lack of direction doesn't necessarily mean anything bad. I think the entitlement you speak of is very prominent in today's society, no doubt. People expect to have their hands held for them, for others to tell them where to go, what to do, and when someone does, they act like they didn't need it in the first place. Which is true. They didn't need it to begin with, but they most certainly demanded it with no sense of humility or gratitude.

You probably didn't mean to do that, but you basically summed up why I find movements like feminism so wrong.

Now, I need to stop before I start writing a novel about it. Good conversation starter!

please continue. We have to take this thing all the way to 24 pages. (see OP) :whistle:

Everyone keeps saying that I'm way off base, but nobody has said what the truth is then. I don't think I've said anything that isn't true. Men's clothing is better, grooming products are not as numerous, sexism is not as prevalent and being pushed not to report sexual harassment is due to unhealthy gender expectations that feminism fights. What part of that isn't true and why?

Of course we all want acceptance for who we are, but many people don't even know how to be themselves when society wants them to be something else. Many people don't even realize the ways that society pushes them to believe they like things that they don't actually enjoy. Some buy into the divide so much that they go with it even if it isn't natural for them.

What is the purpose of dividing masculinity as being male and femininity as being female? In most societies, at least western ones, gendered careers aren't necessary at all. We don't need the strongest people to go hunting anymore. A lot of jobs involve sitting at a desk, which most people can do. Women also have the ability to become just as strong or even stronger than many of their male counterparts, even if they do have to work a bit harder at it. Marriage is no longer just about making family connections and continuing bloodlines, so there is no need to assume people only get married to reproduce or that women need to stay home to care for the kids. Men are capable of caring for kids, and many couples don't even have children. Other couples are same-sex, so they can't even have kids without medical procedures.

The only reason transgenderism and homosexuality are still stigmatized is because of this gender divide. People that don't conform closely enough to the gender they are assigned are deviant. If we could get past this idea that we still need to rely on our biological imperatives despite the fact that science and technology have moved us beyond needing roles based on size and natural abilities, we could get past so much of our hatred and oppression.

ren wrote:

Now, I need to stop before I start writing a novel about it. Good conversation starter!

please continue. We have to take this thing all the way to 24 pages. (see OP) :whistle:

In the same sense, I could verily write a book on how my wife and I got our children to stop having such an entitiled attitude. They now say please and thank you without even a mention from us. From the oldest to the youngest, they have the best manners I've seen out of children their ages, and the youngest is just barely about to turn two. Smartest kids I know, from an objective standpoint. From the subjective, they're geniuses, but that's a bit overreaching. :lol:

Abhaya Budhil wrote: ...What is the purpose of dividing masculinity as being male and femininity as being female? In most societies, at least western ones, gendered careers aren't necessary at all. We don't need the strongest people to go hunting anymore. A lot of jobs involve sitting at a desk, which most people can do. Women also have the ability to become just as strong or even stronger than many of their male counterparts, even if they do have to work a bit harder at it. Marriage is no longer just about making family connections and continuing bloodlines, so there is no need to assume people only get married to reproduce or that women need to stay home to care for the kids. Men are capable of caring for kids, and many couples don't even have children. Other couples are same-sex, so they can't even have kids without medical procedures.

The only reason transgenderism and homosexuality are still stigmatized is because of this gender divide. People that don't conform closely enough to the gender they are assigned are deviant. If we could get past this idea that we still need to rely on our biological imperatives despite the fact that science and technology have moved us beyond needing roles based on size and natural abilities, we could get past so much of our hatred and oppression.

I agree, in part. I don't think that jobs are so much divided like that anymore and a lot more people wait longer to marry and even longer to have children.

I don't think transgenderism and homosexuality is stigmatized by the gender divide so much as is the expectation of that gender to behave in a certain manner. This is wrong, in my view, but I don't think it has anything to do with feminism.

Abhaya Budhil wrote: Everyone keeps saying that I'm way off base, but nobody has said what the truth is then. I don't think I've said anything that isn't true. Men's clothing is better, grooming products are not as numerous, sexism is not as prevalent and being pushed not to report sexual harassment is due to unhealthy gender expectations that feminism fights. What part of that isn't true and why?

I think we have all stated that your thoughts on this is wrong. Male and female have disagreed with you.... Men and woman have the choice to the same amount of grooming supplies. Again i will state that the clothing has no difference! I have given points in how you what you said is not true yet you threw it away.

Other than your comment about how the clothing choices aren't different, all I've heard is "you're wrong" without any explanation of why I'm wrong or any actual counterpoints. I didn't throw away your claim that the clothing isn't different. I responded to it quite clearly. I've worn both male and female clothing, and male clothing tends to be more well made and much more functional. Men's clothing doesn't rip as easily and is often made of sturdier materials. Men's pockets are larger and they don't have those weird fake pockets or fake belt loops that a lot of professional women's clothing has. They also aren't expected to own at least one pair of shoes that forces them to put excess pressure on their feet and ankles.

The average adult female uses shampoo, body wash, face wash, lotion, foundation, cover up, eyeliner, mascara, eye shadow, hair spray or mousse, a comb, a razor, shaving cream, deodorant, body spray, nail polish, lipstick or gloss of some kind, perhaps blush or and eyebrow pencil for certain occasions. (17-19 items)

The average adult male uses shampoo, body wash, face wash, a comb, maybe some kind of hair paste if they have unruly hair, a razor or beard trimmer, shaving cream if they shave, aftershave if they shave, deodorant, maybe body spray for certain occasions. (5-9 items).

The gender divide creates gender expectations, which is why transgenderism and homosexuality are stigmatized. That's why feminine queer women and masculine queer men tend to not be as harassed, while feminine straight men and masculine straight women are treated as if they are gay.

Abhaya Budhil wrote: Other than your comment about how the clothing choices aren't different, all I've heard is "you're wrong" without any explanation of why I'm wrong or any actual counterpoints.

You're wrong because your talking points are inaccurate. You're wrong because the modern ideal of masculinity has absolutely nothing at all to do with being masculine--the modern ideal is that of a submissive, easily-controllable, feminized man that has been spraypainted over with testosterone and football team logos. You're wrong because men's clothing is poorly manufactured unless you buy from a handful of stupidly expensive companies that cater solely to "the working man." You're wrong because women have more options in their dress--not only the physical items, but in their freedom to wear them--than the modern Western man is allowed. You're wrong because in Western civilization men are denied the two historical markers of freedom in the workplace. You're wrong because corporate dress codes require feminized men--men shorn and close-cropped--because they're "safe" enough to be taken seriously. You're wrong because our modern civilization is the first example since Rome of supposedly free men assuming a short-haired default, and even the Romans cut the hair of their slave men. You're wrong because men are denied their right to freedom of appearance even when their facial hair is a necessary part of their spirituality. You're wrong because I have personally been fired from three jobs because I didn't put up with sexual harassment and misandrist decisionmaking, and (through talking with others), I can safely assume both of those things are the norm. You're wrong because feminism has perpetuated a culture that has a broad, general definition of rape, which only excludes consensual, premeditated sex, and anything that happens to men. You're wrong because "men can't be raped." You're wrong because even when we report sexual assault or harassment, we're not taken seriously, because we're told its impossible, or that "what guy doesn't want that?" You're wrong because in many cases when a man is assaulted, he's still assumed to be the aggressor. You're wrong because we live in a culture who has preached for nearly 70 years that men are nothing but negative tropes--bumbling oafs, rapists, abusers, morons. You're wrong because you can't name a sitcom with a decent male role model that's truly a sitcom. You're wrong because violence against women is vilified, and violence against men is routinely celebrated, cheered, or used for comedic effect. You're wrong because you can't quantify a person's worth or influence over society by the number of grooming products they use
You're wrong because of so. many. reasons. that I cannot possibly list them all here without foaming at the mouth, because the attitudes you are forwarding are precisely the attitudes that have basically ruined any chance I have of being taken seriously professionally or privately. You're wrong because they're founded on assumptions instead of facts and ignorance instead of knowledge, and they're perpetuated by parroting other feminists who have no idea what they're talking about because they didn't bother to look at things themselves.

Is that clear enough?

I've been trying really hard to understand and empathize with all the ositions here, but I keep coming back to a "why does everything have to be explained?" place on it...