Feminism

Ren, women aren't much of a minority. In many countries women are actually in the majority. I'm not sure about what the exact percentages are for the world as a whole, but it's pretty close to 50/50. The problem isn't that women are a minority. It's that they are marginalized. So students are not being taught by the minority. Also, I was studying education in school and I was one of two or three male students in all of my education classes. The problem isn't that men can't get teaching jobs. They aren't trying to get those jobs. Those jobs don't tend to pay as well in many countries, and it is a job that has a stigma of being a feminine profession. Abolishing the patriarchy would involve making feminine attributes just fine in men, which would remove that stigma and possibly allow more men to feel comfortable pursuing teaching.

As far as being treated more harshly in courts, that also goes back to patriarchy. Men are seen as strong and dangerous, while women are seen as weak and relatively harmless. If being female was no longer seen as a weakness, people would realize women can be just as dangerous as men, which would ultimately make things more fair for men.

Feminists might not actively advocate for men's rights because women are the oppressed group. They are the ones who have fewer rights. They are the ones who do not dominate in high paying jobs and in politics, so it can be difficult for women to find a voice. However, that does not mean that men do not benefit from feminism. Patriarchy harms everyone, and feminists are concerned with breaking down patriarchy.

Honestly, the fact that you need to know how the ruling class is benefiting from giving equal rights to an oppressed class means you probably don't fully understand the problem. It is easy for you as a male to say there isn't a problem with women being oppressed. You haven't lived their lives. Do you ask how rights for people of color ultimately benefit white people? Or how rights for LGBT people ultimately benefit heteronormative people? If so, you just don't understand that those views only further oppression. When the rights of the oppressed class have to better the ruling class, the oppressed class is no longer the center of focus in their own fight to rise from oppression, and that is a problem.

A group is a number of people or things that are located close together or are considered or classed together.

Rights are legal, social, or ethical principles of freedom or entitlement; that is, rights are the fundamental normative rules about what is allowed of people or owed to people, according to some legal system, social convention, or ethical theory.

There seems to be a common theme here. People form (or join) a group and then “fight” for their rights or equality or something they feel someone isn't getting or is abusing. Interestingly enough, in my opinion, if one is a part of a group they have already separated themselves from the whole. When you are apart from everything else you can’t be a part of it! So, at most, all you can hope to achieve is to be treated equally.

That’s crap! Why would I want to be treated equally? As far as what we deserve or how we should be; we ARE all already equal. I think it’s time we realize that and stop “treating” people equally and be each other’s equal .

If there is a bill that says women, men, black, white, straight, gay or identifies any “group” in any way other than human or people; then it should be handed back and rewritten till it address only “us.”

I am,
We are…
All of us!

Just thinking out loud I guess…

Actually women can be sexists. Many are, and they use feminism as an excuse. The US also has some cases of institutional sexism against men like divorce courts, sexual assault charges being brought by men against women, the list goes on. Turn on any TV program and watch all the sexist remarks... it's remarkable.

"White" people can experience racism, discrimination, etc. Keep in mind, "white" people are now a minority in the US, not that you have to be a minority to experience racism nor is there such a thing as race(it's not a scientific thing but a cultural thing).

I also think the sexist women masquerading as feminists have done more harm to women than sexist men have because they bring about anti-feminism as a response to sexism.

Anyway, I grew up with "real" feminists so it's easy for me to relate to them and easy to spot the sexists(both men and women).

Abhaya Budhil wrote: Ren, women aren't much of a minority. In many countries women are actually in the majority. I'm not sure about what the exact percentages are for the world as a whole, but it's pretty close to 50/50. The problem isn't that women are a minority. It's that they are marginalized. So students are not being taught by the minority. Also, I was studying education in school and I was one of two or three male students in all of my education classes. The problem isn't that men can't get teaching jobs. They aren't trying to get those jobs. Those jobs don't tend to pay as well in many countries, and it is a job that has a stigma of being a feminine profession. Abolishing the patriarchy would involve making feminine attributes just fine in men, which would remove that stigma and possibly allow more men to feel comfortable pursuing teaching.

As far as being treated more harshly in courts, that also goes back to patriarchy. Men are seen as strong and dangerous, while women are seen as weak and relatively harmless. If being female was no longer seen as a weakness, people would realize women can be just as dangerous as men, which would ultimately make things more fair for men.

Feminists might not actively advocate for men's rights because women are the oppressed group. They are the ones who have fewer rights. They are the ones who do not dominate in high paying jobs and in politics, so it can be difficult for women to find a voice. However, that does not mean that men do not benefit from feminism. Patriarchy harms everyone, and feminists are concerned with breaking down patriarchy.

Honestly, the fact that you need to know how the ruling class is benefiting from giving equal rights to an oppressed class means you probably don't fully understand the problem. It is easy for you as a male to say there isn't a problem with women being oppressed. You haven't lived their lives. Do you ask how rights for people of color ultimately benefit white people? Or how rights for LGBT people ultimately benefit heteronormative people? If so, you just don't understand that those views only further oppression. When the rights of the oppressed class have to better the ruling class, the oppressed class is no longer the center of focus in their own fight to rise from oppression, and that is a problem.

WOW. The product of feminism. right there. So you really think the majority of people think like you do? No, they don't. As you said there is a majority of women. Who does that make the ruling class then? (also for the record the minority i referred to regarding teachers were unionised feminist left-wingers --possibly a couple of communists too-- these were about 90% of the teachers I got)

When was the last time "the patriarchy" passed an obvious sexist law? you know, one that gives men right, but not women? So where is the patriarchy.Please show it to me.

Whyte Horse, I already addressed court inequalities. It is a part of patriarchy. People see men as more competent and stronger than women, so men are expected to support women. Also, if someone is sexually assaulted they have a right to press charges, so I'm not sure how that comment fits in. But if people stopped seeing women as being weaker, then they wouldn't think it was right and natural for men to support women even in divorce.

Ren, if the majority of people thought like I do we wouldn't have a sexism problem. Oppression is trying to silence people because they are not the majority. So by saying my statements aren't as valid because not as many people think this way, you are furthering the sexism problem. You are choosing to ignore it.

Being in the majority does not make you the ruling class. Women are not in the majority at the top of businesses, in politics, etc. Therefore, they often do not have a very strong voice and are not able to make effective change. Men are still the ruling class because we have the power in society.

Just because an obviously sexist law hasn't been passed recently, that doesn't mean sexism doesn't still exist in many ways. Sexism still affects people because people still believe women ask for rape, they believe women need men, they believe women should stay at home and raise a family, women have a hard time getting higher paying jobs (a harder time than men do), etc. The same way we haven't passed any blatantly racist laws lately, but racism is still going strong.

Wescli, sometimes groups have to separate themselves in order to have equal rights and equal opportunities. It might not be the most effective way to become equal to everyone else, but it is the way it has to be. You don't gain equal protections and equal opportunities by sitting back and blending in.

I'm not saying sexism doesn't exist. I'm overtly accusing feminism of being sexist and of causing the creation of sexist laws.

Just because an obviously sexist law hasn't been passed recently

. Except it has. Just not at the expense of women.

Ren, if the majority of people thought like I do we wouldn't have a sexism problem.

You mean, if all people tried to only advance the rights of one gender and ignore the other, there would be no sexism?

they often do not have a very strong voice and are not able to make effective change

Now who's sexist? Women could bring change even when they didn't have the right to vote.
Are you saying that all the rights women have obtained in the past were either because:
-Women had a stronger voice and could bring more effective change before than they can now.
-Women are not as strong or as capable as men to stand on their own two feet.
-Those changes came about because men brought those changes on behalf of the women who couldnt do it themselves. (The patriarchy didn't exist.)
?

Your mere assertion that it is not possible for men to be discriminated against because they're men is sexist. This, makes you one of these people: "People see men as more competent and stronger than women".

You are sexist.

I think you two are missing each other's points by miles. Twisting words.

Ren, I'm saying that when you don't have representation at the top of business and politics it is more difficult to make effective change. It isn't impossible, but it takes a long time and a lot of effort. It is much easier to create change when you are in power. I'm not saying that women are weaker and can't do it themselves. I'm saying they shouldn't have to do it themselves. As a trans person and someone who lived as a female for 18 years, I understand that advocating for yourself is difficult and frustrating because people see you as whiney and insignificant. It is much better to have allies.

I don't see men as more competent and stronger than women. I see an uneven balance of power that favors men over women. Individual acts of bias or hatred are not the same thing as the widespread discrimination women face. Women suffer real consequences at the hands of a system that favors men. Individual hatred by women toward men does not have widespread systematic consequences.

Which laws are you referring to that are sexist?

Here are just a few examples of male privilege:

On a daily basis as a male person...

1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

2. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.

3. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co- workers are.

4. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

5. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

6. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home.

7. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

8. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

9. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.

10. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

11. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex.

12. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex.

13. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.”

14. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability.

15. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status.

16. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time.

17. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

18. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.

19. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, etc.

20. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

21. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name.

22. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

23. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.

24. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing.

25. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

26. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, etc. are filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

27. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do.

28. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

29. Pornography often includes images of women being raped. There are not nearly as many images of men being raped or facing sexual violence in pornography.

30. I can walk down the street without being yelled at, whistled at, or harassed in general.

31. I do not have to think about where I might get raped.

32. When I am insulted, it is often done by comparing me to a woman.

1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

Except the opposite is true. A quick tour of any jobcentre in the UK shows that men are far more desperate for a job. Men will accept pretty much anything, which is why they are far likelier to die at work than women. My experiencee shows me that only men are willing to work nightshifts in ddifficult environments on christmas or new year's day.

2. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.

Only feminists are obsessed with having a career and being strong and independent and whatnot, based on gender.

3. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co- workers are.

I could argue that women dressing sexy for work are harassing the male employees. But I won't. instead I'll argue that feminists see sexual harrassment every where. Just the other day a male friend grabbed me by the crotch at a party. I wasn't at a police station later on that night. My bum was smacked by a girl (at school) without warning before I did it. I once accidentally touched a girl's breast at school, got accused of "rape". they eventually realized it was all BS, but not an uneventful experience for me. I'm not even sure if I actually even did it, because I got accused about a week later.

4. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

Is that why women are so over-represented in some industries? Because men are too good?

5. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

And where exactly is the opposite true?

6. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home.

And if you have children and no career, what happens?

7. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

Maggy Thatcher. Also, women form the majority of the lectorate. they are more numerous and they vote more.

8. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

It all depends on where you are. My son's got I think 13 people working on him. They're all women.

9. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.

I agree. Though I wonder if it was as a result of the male parent, the female parent, or both?

10. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

yet girls believe they're better than boys as young as 4 years old.

11. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex.

Is it ever for women? Besides, when people screw up, it's usually blames on one of their obvious characteristics. gender race, hair color.

12. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex.

Tell that to the insurance companies. You know? those evil male-controlled corporations....

13. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.”

True. though I wonder who calls them sluts most? Men or women? Feminists always go on about what is OK and what is not regarding female sexuality (with a wide range of opinions). porn is bad, porn is good. prostitution is oppression, no, it's liberation. All men are rapists vs. women sleep with whoever they like. No-one agrees but no matter the feminist, it's on their agenda. Why not talk about the so-called "male standards of beauty".

14. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability.

Now this is complete and utter BS. When you advertise the goods, it's because you want to sell them. Gay men do it too, they just don't lie about their motives. If I wanted to get a girl or show "my sexual availability". I don't work out, don't wear tight jeans or micro skirts, don't wear anything to make my pecs look bigger and ddon't wear the kind of shirt that show my abs or as much cleavage as legally possible. I don't wear makeup to hide my many skin imperfections. I'm sure women are capable of that too.

15. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status.

Men's clothes are significantly more expensive than women's over here. I don't think the price of clothes has anything to do with gender though, but likely with matrials used, workforce costs and quantities produced.

16. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time.

A Gilette razor blade everyday is sooooo cheap. right? In fact, shaving your face everyday is such a healthy practice. Razor burns are an urban legend.

17. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

Mostly caused by other women who create insane competition. My missus can't go braless to work because her female manager (who also has a female manager whose general manager is a woman too btw) opposes it. How are you expected to compete against people wearing paded bras, makeup, expensive hairstyles, etc? Women have themselves to blame. My missus has a colleague who wakes up before her husband so that he doesn't see her without makeup. Self-inflicted retardation. Men can put decent enough clothes, shave, and get on with their lives, mostly because it'd be perceived as gay to do otherwise. that's a problem for men who want to take excessive care of themselves too.
Not a gender issue, a social issue. We happen to be judgemental of people who don't fit right in.

18. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.

different gender, different names. I don't hear many women being called bastards, or dicks, or pussies. Here again, not a gender issue. People have arguments/disagreements and use colourful words. I think overall men are expected to do more than women.

19. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, etc.

True. Maybe these are for historical reasons? Women have something they can call their own, men have to share with gender-neutral language (in french even more than english I might add)

20. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

Why would they? You don't have a menstrual cycle. Your prostate problems however will be completely ignored, and if you happen to be a celebrity, you'll be trashed for it in the newspapers.

21. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name.

That's because you live in a country that uses family names. There is no question over who's who's mother. For fathers, there is the name. that's tradition for you.

22. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

That's because men are expected to ignore their family's needs and put work first. While women are entitled to excessively long time off (in my country, paid for by the employer). If women renounced their special privileges they'd make themselves a lot more employable in highly demanding sectors.

23. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.

Coz mowing is such great fun. I can confirm this is the way it went for my parents. but then again my father was working (sometimes far away and would only return for the week-ends), my mother was there all day while the kids were at school. As a stay-at-home dad, while I'll admit chores are unrewarding, I've never had it so easy. Factory work isn't more rewarding than home chores. And that's keeping in mind I don't see a penny of my missus' salary, I manage to make my own. Oh and I pay for her college. Oh yeah, the kid's got autism and only goes to school 3 afternoons a week. Happy days.

24. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing.

I blame feminism for making it near-impossible for men to do it.

25. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

Probably true. then again, if this is what people want, how is it bad?

26. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, etc. are filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

I see far more topless men in adverts than I see topless women. But maybe I look in the wrong places? Besides, as I said before, it could be a form of harrassment. Here you are going about your business (geek talk at a conference), and something forces you to think about sex just to attract your attention to a product (booth babes). Also, is it more common for "sexy" adverts to be aimed at the opposite gender or at the same gender?

27. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do.

Yet women are fatter than men, and despite being given a lot more margin than men (regarding obesity), they still are more likely to be obese. We constantly hear about how it's OK to be fat and how all shapes are good (except the non-fat ones men tend to like better). Let's be honest here, a fat or ugly guy has near zero chance of finding himself a "loving" wife unless he's got money. the opposite is not true.

28. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

That's probably because women talk an average of at least twice as much as men everyday. If what you say is even true. Speak twice as much = twice as likely to be interrupted. And I could argue for exponentials here.

29. Pornography often includes images of women being raped. There are not nearly as many images of men being raped or facing sexual violence in pornography.

That's because you, like most feminists, ignore what you do not want to see. There is plenty of femdom BDSM. I've seen porn where the female performers go batshit crazy on the male performers. Where men suffer permanent sexual mutilations (no, not self inflicted)(for the record I'm really not into that kind of stuff) And then there's plenty of gay porn.

30. I can walk down the street without being yelled at, whistled at, or harassed in general.

that'd be because you're not very attractive to women. When I was significantly fitter and less hairy, it has happened to me. got groped too.

31. I do not have to think about where I might get raped.

No one's got to think about that. I do not have to think where I might kill myself, or where I might get involved in a car accident or be mugged, etc. Yet these things are quite likely (got mugged with a knife, my entire family except me has been involved in road accidents, I know someone at totjo who nearly killed himself). Nobody's got to think about this stuff. Yet some prominent feministS like to remind us that all men are either rapists, or potential rapists, or rapists if they do not get express written permission to do anything they like. I don't think any man ever wrote anything as disgusting as the SCUM manifesto. When you're a man however, you have to be extremely careful how you behave around women, who you have sex with and how, as you may be falsely accused of rape, sexual assault or harrassment.

32. When I am insulted, it is often done by comparing me to a woman.

I think that's because men tolerate women's faults because they're women. When a man displays these same faults but lacks the vagina, it's insulting.
Though I agree it really shouldn't be.... But women do it too... "Ahhh, men!". Because men are always presented in a way where they understand day to day issues, aren't they?

ren wrote: Except the opposite is true. A quick tour of any jobcentre in the UK shows that men are far more desperate for a job. Men will accept pretty much anything, which is why they are far likelier to die at work than women. My experiencee shows me that only men are willing to work nightshifts in ddifficult environments on christmas or new year's day.

Wrong. I am a woman and I work night shifts all the time in hazardous conditions. I work holidays too. And I know a lot of other ladies who do as well.

yet girls believe they're better than boys as young as 4 years old.

And many boys believe they are better than girls. "You throw like a girl!" Kids are kids.

Tell that to the insurance companies. You know? those evil male-controlled corporations....

That one I have to agree with. I believe that young men end up with higher insurance rates when it comes to driving...but I could be wrong.

Now this is complete and utter BS. When you advertise the goods, it's because you want to sell them. Gay men do it too, they just don't lie about their motives. If I wanted to get a girl or show "my sexual availability". I don't work out, don't wear tight jeans or micro skirts, don't wear anything to make my pecs look bigger and ddon't wear the kind of shirt that show my abs or as much cleavage as legally possible. I don't wear makeup to hide my many skin imperfections. I'm sure women are capable of that too.

Sometimes it's just hot out, Ren. And here in the states its perfectly acceptable (and frequently seen) for men to walk around without a shirt. If I try it, I'd get thrown in jail! So, when a lady is wearing a short sundress or cut off jeans it's not to catch a man...it's because its 100 degrees outside and she's dying of heat.

A Gilette razor blade everyday is sooooo cheap. right? In fact, shaving your face everyday is such a healthy practice. Razor burns are an urban legend.

Yeah, shaving sucks, doesn't it? Women have more area to cover - pits and legs...plus they're encouraged to pluck whatever 'stache they might have (yeah ladies get hair above their lip too) and their eyebrows. If they don't, many men consider that gross. Ewww, body hair!!! lol Yet they're fine with their own.

Plus, isn't 5 'o clock shadow considered sexy on a man?

Not a gender issue, a social issue. We happen to be judgemental of people who don't fit right in.

So true!

Why would they? You don't have a menstrual cycle. Your prostate problems however will be completely ignored, and if you happen to be a celebrity, you'll be trashed for it in the newspapers.

Maybe that's a regional thing? They play ads here all the time trying to sell men testosterone supplements, little blue pills, and other things. And male cancer is taken very seriously.

As for celebs...both male and female celebs are trashed. It's part of being famous.

I blame feminism for making it near-impossible for men to do it.

Huh???

Yet women are fatter than men, and despite being given a lot more margin than men (regarding obesity), they still are more likely to be obese. We constantly hear about how it's OK to be fat and how all shapes are good (except the non-fat ones men tend to like better). Let's be honest here, a fat or ugly guy has near zero chance of finding himself a "loving" wife unless he's got money. the opposite is not true.

That's biology. Men lose weight easier than women do.

That's probably because women talk an average of at least twice as much as men everyday. If what you say is even true. Speak twice as much = twice as likely to be interrupted. And I could argue for exponentials here.

Hehe :laugh: You should hear my male coworkers. Like a bunch of hens. They talk just as much as any girl I've known...they even seem to gossip more. It's insane.


You know nobody is going to win, right? When it comes to gender both are picked on and coveted equally.

As for feminism...I guess Ren runs into a lot of them from where he's from? And that sucks that he feels threatened or picked on, but most of the world isn't strictly in either the feminist or male chauvinist camp.

And frankly, wouldn't we be better served thinking about the solution instead of the problem? You know, dropping the whining and picking up the golden rule.