Feminism

In the UK they recently passed a law that took away male prisoner rights, while female prisoners still have those rights. They also impose quotas on companies, etc. In the US you have "violence against women act".

To be honest I don't understand the quota system. I would find it insulting if I was only hired because they are forced to hire "my kind".

What rights did they decide to take away from the male prisoners?

The violence against women act is an example of biased laws that grow out of patriarchy. People see women as inherently weak and in need of protection, so laws like this are passed. Abolishing the patriarchy would force people to see that these laws are ridiculous.

Also, I think we finally agree on something, Ren. Quotas are ridiculous. Affirmative action works for short periods of time when there is significant need to create fast social change (forcing schools to accept people of color, forcing schools to accept women, etc.). Affirmative action should never be longterm, and quotas should not exist in education once inclusion of those groups is seen as normal. Quotas should never exist in employment. Everyone should be free to hire who they want to hire for whatever reason they want. We should not be enforcing quotas. We should be working to change the culture to one that is less discriminatory so that employers hire equally without quotas.

The violence against women act is an example of biased laws that grow out of patriarchy.

To me it looks like it has wide feminist support.

I have a question to anyone that cares to answer….

What good does arguing amongst ourselves, on an internet site, do to improve the situation?

All I see is finger pointing, opinion flinging and flagrant attempts at alienating each other. And I was curious as to what good was coming from this? I mean, obviously the people discussing their views have strong opinions and strong personalities and have decided that hay are right and no one is going to convince them otherwise. And no one else has figured this out? Or is it ego and the need to be right that is fueling this?

Wescli, I am continuing the conversation because I think that talking about oppression is important. I understand that Ren probably won't change his mind, but other people who read this thread might change their minds. It is important to talk about and people should know both sides of the argument before they just push feminism aside. It isn't all bra burning, which is what people tend to think. For me, this thread is about creating awareness.

Ren, I don't know if maybe the mainstream feminist movement supports that law, but the feminists I know, who all tend to be pretty reasonable people, don't support any law that is specifically aimed at men or women. Perhaps you just haven't met any reasonable feminists in your life. We are out there. We just aren't always the loudest ones because we aren't yelling in the streets.

So, would you rather us form groups and fight each other for “rights” or just be each other’s equal?

See, I don’t think it’s important to argue something pointlessly.

Lead by example. Be equal with others. You know... by being part of a group, people are segregating themselves from the whole?

And some would argue, isn’t that what Jediism is? And I would say no. We are all Jedi. TOTJO is where we go to learn and develop our understanding of being a Jedi. We are not separate from the whole, nor do we oppose others that do not agree. Just as any individual can accept any idea when given the chance to, this is a place we go to learn about how celebrating our diversity can better the world. Not necessarily to convince them they are wrong and we are right.

That is why I do not see the point in what has been occurring.

I have long considered myself an equalist, rather than a feminist. A lot of people have made feminism a dirty word, because they think that feminists want something for nothing. All I want is to get the same rate of pay for the same work, at the same quality. I don't want loopholes, nor do I want special recognition.

When a group of people has fewer rights than another group and they want to have equal rights, they sometimes have to find their own groups. There are a lot of people who don't believe we have a women's rights issue (as is clearly shown by this thread), so women have to form groups to advocate for their rights because nobody is going to do it for them if they don't take the first step. Groups are needed for organization. If they just stayed as part of the whole, nobody would even know there was a problem.

Leading by example works in everyday life on just a day by day basis. But I'm just a random college student nobody has ever heard of. My example isn't going to help make policy changes. By talking about these things, more and more people become aware of the problem. With more people aware, effective and lasting change is more likely to happen.

If I said, "Racism isn't as big of a problem as it used to be, so it isn't worth arguing about. Just be a good person and take care of yourself, and let others do the same until everyone is being a decent human being. We shouldn't be advocating for rights and equality for people of color because some people also hate white people and there are a few rare laws that favor people of color." That would be seen as racist. I would be ignoring the systematic oppression that people of color face. It's the same thing with women's rights. We are not yet at a point where blending in is an option for women, and I will stand with them and talk about them and advocate for them until they have equality.

I don't see this discussion as pointless. It has a very real and important point, which is to raise awareness so that people are thinking about these issues. It is important to women, so it should not be brushed aside and ignored.

It's not the same thing as saying, "My religion is right and yours is wrong" or "You're a bad person because you eat meat." We're talking about real people who are facing real consequences every day.

This is an example of a person fighting for “their” rights and the right s of his people.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

My point is that, where would we be if someone of his caliber would have fought for the rights of all and not focused on one group?

There have been many people, many groups that have made leaps and bounds for their groups. But are those people the only ones we care about?

How you conduct yourself in your day-to-day life elevates others to your position. Rather you realize it or not. Rather your example be intolerance or acceptance, people see. How we raise the next generation reflects the history we hope to make of tomorrow.

Wanting to be treated equally is fine. Knowing that you are equal is better. Being someone’s equal is better yet.
When you say that you’re not getting something, are you insinuating that it is not being given you by someone else? Does that mean that you have elevated yourself in your mind or lowered someone else because of moral implications? When one is accused of something, they tend to be defensive. Do we want people to be defensive against the fact that we all are equal?

The saying goes, “you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.”

The problem is that you can't really advocate for everything all at once because the issues are not the same. People of color need to be treated equally in the justice system. Women need to be treated equally in the workforce. Same-sex couples need marriage rights and adoption rights. Transgender people need access to surgeries that they can't afford because they aren't covered by healthcare. Since the problems are very different, they cannot be argued all at the same time.

Some people are looking for rights that have to be provided by someone else. Same-sex couples are looking to get the same government recognition and accompanying monetary benefits that heterosexual couples have. Transgender people are looking for insurance companies to cover the cost of necessary surgeries. Those are things that someone else has to give them. Those are actual policy changes that need to happen. It won't happen by just being a good person.

In my everyday life I can lead by example, but it is much more difficult on an online forum where we only have our words. This whole thing started with the statement that prostitution oppressed men. I saw a problem with that as it assumes women owe men sex, so I spoke up. By speaking up, I am leading by example. I'm showing that you should stand for the things you believe in and speak out when you see something that furthers a culture of oppression.

On an online forum, speaking out is the only example we can really give. That's just the nature of our space here.