Feminism

I'm still not clear on what the situation in the UK is. What did the new prison laws do?

Also, maybe your politicians serve the people, but in the US politicians mostly serve themselves despite what the people want. And that happens all the way down to the town level of politics as well. It's happening right now in my town.

As far as sandwich and rape jokes, those attitudes are why feminism exists in the first place.

ren wrote: As I was trying to tell Adder in chat, it is impossible to attain equal right only by granting more rights to one group.

group A must acquire all of group B's rights, and groups B must acquire all of groups A's rights.

Feminism is exclusively about giving women additional rights. by definition, i mean, the NAME ITSELF is sexist.

If you wish to explain and give me examples of how feminism has helped men get the rights that women have, I'm all ears.


And for the record, the very reason I despise feminism is because I believe in equal rights, duties and privileges, and not in discrimination or segregation. feminists lobby for legislation that gives women and women only additional rights or privileges.

Why is "Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women" not called "Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Gender Discrimination"? I'll tell you why: because men aren't protected from discrimination. And this is the UN.

I'm surprisingly agreeing wholeheartedly with Ren. Being as I am TOTJO's resident A-hole, I'm gonna state the uncomfortable facts and leave it up to the admins/mods to decide whether or not it stays up.

The motivation behind feminism is the same motivation behind all "anti-discrimination" (see: reverse discrimination) politics, which is guilt. In the Western World, we are more than familiar with the concept of white guilt. It is what has produced the affirmative action programs here in the US that have devastated African-American communities. It is what is behind the unfettered immigration problems faced by many European nations. It is something that former empires, like Britain and France, can't seem to live down, no matter how much they sacrifice, apologize and beat themselves up.

The prevailing attitude toward women throughout history is perhaps the biggest shame upon the human race. There have been a few exceptions, for instance, pre-Christian Ireland and Mycenaean Greece, but the entire world, until fairly recently, has been traditionally and historically uniform in relegating women to the back seat of society. We all have a moral duty to make sure that this does not happen again. However, as the example with white guilt shows, reverse discrimination does nothing, and causes a whole load of new problems. I was denied a job opportunity in the CIA for being white. My friend, who is a professor, is denied further opportunities and tenure because he is white, straight, and not disabled. The ANC government in South Africa is allowing a near-genocide of white South Africans and nobody knows or cares.

When I hear some libtard bitch about "white privilege" "male privilege" or "straight privilege," I always feel a bit of amusement along with the burning anger they cause in me, because I, not him/her, am the one with near-useless knees from long nights and copious injuries in the warehouse and maybe two hours of sleep before classes, and I am a white heterosexual male, while the libtard aggressor is often a beneficiary of reverse discrimination. If they said half the crap to me in real life that they say online, they would be seriously injured. So I prefer white girls, or I personally find gay sex gross. That apparently makes me a card-carrying member of the NSDAP

The early feminists had a point, because it was during a time where there were substantial legal and societal obstacles for women's progress in life and ambitions. That was taken care of. There will always be some small remnant of discrimination, whether it be gender, racial, or religious, but now it's more reduced to personal prejudice than to real, tangible problems that affect society. Long story short, feminists need to just shut up about imaginary problems. We have real stuff to worry about.

Is it a mountain in the distance blocking our path or a molehill we just happen to be looking at REALLY closely?

There is no legitimizing suffering. You are suffering or you are not.

People need to stop living in their heads so much.

Star Forge wrote: The early feminists had a point, because it was during a time where there were substantial legal and societal obstacles for women's progress in life and ambitions. That was taken care of.

Not really, though lots of progress was made by things like intelligent use of affirmative action and equality for gender within legislation. There is a lot of the 3rd world where it is a serious problem still, but it does still exist in the 1st world.

Abhaya Budhil wrote: Ren, I'm saying that when you don't have representation at the top of business and politics it is more difficult to make effective change. It isn't impossible, but it takes a long time and a lot of effort. It is much easier to create change when you are in power. I'm not saying that women are weaker and can't do it themselves. I'm saying they shouldn't have to do it themselves. As a trans person and someone who lived as a female for 18 years, I understand that advocating for yourself is difficult and frustrating because people see you as whiney and insignificant. It is much better to have allies.

I don't see men as more competent and stronger than women. I see an uneven balance of power that favors men over women. Individual acts of bias or hatred are not the same thing as the widespread discrimination women face. Women suffer real consequences at the hands of a system that favors men. Individual hatred by women toward men does not have widespread systematic consequences.

Which laws are you referring to that are sexist?

Here are just a few examples of male privilege:

On a daily basis as a male person...

1. My odds of being hired for a job, when competing against female applicants, are probably skewed in my favor. The more prestigious the job, the larger the odds are skewed.

2. If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.

3. I am far less likely to face sexual harassment at work than my female co- workers are.

4. If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job.

5. If I choose not to have children, my masculinity will not be called into question.

6. If I have children and a career, no one will think I’m selfish for not staying at home.

7. My elected representatives are mostly people of my own sex. The more prestigious and powerful the elected position, the more this is true.

8. When I ask to see “the person in charge,” odds are I will face a person of my own sex. The higher-up in the organization the person is, the surer I can be.

9. As a child, chances are I was encouraged to be more active and outgoing than my sisters.

10. As a child, chances are I got more teacher attention than girls who raised their hands just as often.

11. If I’m careless with my financial affairs it won’t be attributed to my sex.

12. If I’m careless with my driving it won’t be attributed to my sex.

13. Even if I sleep with a lot of women, there is no chance that I will be seriously labeled a “slut,” nor is there any male counterpart to “slut-bashing.”

14. I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability.

15. My clothing is typically less expensive and better-constructed than women’s clothing for the same social status.

16. The grooming regimen expected of me is relatively cheap and consumes little time.

17. If I’m not conventionally attractive, the disadvantages are relatively small and easy to ignore.

18. I can be loud with no fear of being called a shrew. I can be aggressive with no fear of being called a bitch.

19. I can be confident that the ordinary language of day-to-day existence will always include my sex. “All men are created equal,” mailman, chairman, freshman, etc.

20. My ability to make important decisions and my capability in general will never be questioned depending on what time of the month it is.

21. I will never be expected to change my name upon marriage or questioned if I don’t change my name.

22. The decision to hire me will never be based on assumptions about whether or not I might choose to have a family sometime soon.

23. If I have a wife or live-in girlfriend, chances are we’ll divide up household chores so that she does most of the labor, and in particular the most repetitive and unrewarding tasks.

24. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, chances are she’ll do most of the childrearing, and in particular the most dirty, repetitive and unrewarding parts of childrearing.

25. If I have children with a wife or girlfriend, and it turns out that one of us needs to make career sacrifices to raise the kids, chances are we’ll both assume the career sacrificed should be hers.

26. Magazines, billboards, television, movies, etc. are filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

27. In general, I am under much less pressure to be thin than my female counterparts are. If I am fat, I probably suffer fewer social and economic consequences for being fat than fat women do.

28. On average, I am not interrupted by women as often as women are interrupted by men.

29. Pornography often includes images of women being raped. There are not nearly as many images of men being raped or facing sexual violence in pornography.

30. I can walk down the street without being yelled at, whistled at, or harassed in general.

31. I do not have to think about where I might get raped.

32. When I am insulted, it is often done by comparing me to a woman.

No. I refuse to accept this, at least from you. Some of the points you make may be valid, or maybe not. I think Ren did an outstanding job of refuting more than a few of them, but that is not what I mean.

Do not think for a second that you can, with any integrity, claim to have fully experienced a man's life. You have not been a "man" for very long, and beyond that, you're still a minority, being the T in LGBT (and possibly one of the other letters, as I have no idea as to your sexual preference), and therefore, you are a beneficiary of reverse discrimination. So no, your experience is not that of the typical man, whether he be white, black, gay, straight, or anything. Live as a man for another 20 years or so and then maybe we will talk.

I believe, using my own experience as an example, I think can sum up what Ren's been trying to say from the beginning (Ren, if I get it wrong, please correct me promptly), using an example that I fear many of you may not appreciate. But here goes.

Those of us living in the Western World have seen what affirmative action (reverse discrimination) has done in regards to race, and rightly feel that the white heterosexual male must be oppressed more and more to make up for past and present discrimination toward other groups. I myself have become a white nationalist out of self-defense, self-preservation, and my larger motives for this are really irrelevant to the discussion, but understand that in doing so, I do not, nor do I have any will to, oppress anybody else. I'm all for "white power," meaning the defense of the white man against affirmative action, as well as the preservation of, say, English romanticist literature or Irish history against the leftist education system that would reduce or omit them in favor of, say, African-American literature or gay studies. At the same time, I am also for "black power," because I believe African-American literature, for example, is very important as well. In other words, in being a white nationalist, I seek to fight the discrimination against myself while, at the very least, trying not to discriminate against or hinder the progress of anybody else.

In other words, you don't fight discrimination against one demographic by counter-balancing it with discrimination against another. Discrimination is all bad.

Star Forge wrote: Long story short, feminists need to just shut up about imaginary problems. We have real stuff to worry about.

In related news......... in the UK, domestic violence kills two women every week!!!

The World Health Organisation (WHO) has released a report that highlights violence against women as a ‘global health problem of epidemic proportions’

Report Link: http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/85239/1/9789241564625_eng.pdf

Adder wrote:

Star Forge wrote: Long story short, feminists need to just shut up about imaginary problems. We have real stuff to worry about.

In related news......... in the UK, domestic violence kills two women every week!!!

The World Health Organisation (WHO) has released a report that highlights violence against women as a ‘global health problem of epidemic proportions’

Report Link: http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/85239/1/9789241564625_eng.pdf

Adder, I'm gonna be nice, since you don't debate like a drunken clown.

Two a week? One, how many men are murdered a week, and two, only two a week is a woman-friendly paradise compared to the US where I live. And again, what about the fact that in every military everywhere, men make up the vast majority of servicemen, and men are also more often the victims of violent crime, but the world only seems to care about female victims? You're only reinforcing my (and Ren's) point.

Star Forge wrote: Report Link: http://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/10665/85239/1/9789241564625_eng.pdf

Adder, I'm gonna be nice, since you don't debate like a drunken clown.

Two a week? One, how many men are murdered a week, and two, only two a week is a woman-friendly paradise compared to the US where I live. And again, what about the fact that in every military everywhere, men make up the vast majority of servicemen, and men are also more often the victims of violent crime, but the world only seems to care about female victims? You're only reinforcing my (and Ren's) point.

Is that what you get out of the report!!!!!? Specificity is not discrimination. The report is into intimate partner violence and non-partner sexual violence against women.

I'd suggest create a Manism thread or something if you want to post stuff about how men are more often victims of violent crime etc. Don't forget to post why men are more often the victims of violent crime though - from memory its because they are also more often the offenders too. Not an unexpected coincidence.

Here is what the report is about;

"Violence against women is not a new phenomenon, nor are its consequences to women’s physical, mental and reproductive health.

What is new is the growing recognition that acts of violence against women are not isolated events but rather form a pattern of behaviour that violates the rights of women and girls, limits their participation in society, and damages their health and well-being.

When studied systematically, as was done with this report, it becomes clear that violence against women is a global public health problem that affects approximately one third of women globally.

By compiling and analysing all available data from studies designed to capture women’s experiences of different forms of violence, this report provides the first such summary of the violent life events that many women experience. It documents not only how widespread this problem is, but also how deeply women’s health is affected when they experience violence.

This report marks a big advance for women’s health and rights. It adds to the momentum of the 57th session of the Commission on the Status of Women, which emphasized the need to address the root causes of violence against women...."

Star Forge, I would just like to say that the list I posted was not my own. It was one a friend gave to me. However, that does not change the fact that I have been living as a male full time for nearly two years now and I have already benefitted from a lot of the privileges listed. If I can benefit from them in that short amount of time, I can only imagine I would benefit even more in 20 years. I have had several male friends who have told me that they list is accurate from their experience. Also, maybe you missed the post where I refuted Ren's refutes (is that a word?).

The law in england and wales stipulates that to commit rape, one must have a penis, and that if you're a woman who one morning after boozing (pretty much everyday) wakes up next to a man you don't find attractive, you got raped. If you're a guy, the only way you can be raped is by another guy. police statistics regarding the level of violence in an assault = meaningless.